
The Economist has a thought-provoking article on the way that countries change as you go from the north to the south. While much of what they say will not be surprising to readers, one anomaly does stand out—the way these patterns (or stereotypes?) flip at each international border:
The really startling detail is how often these stereotypes reset at national borders. Start in the southern Netherlands. According to common prejudice, the Dutch see their Flemish-Belgian neighbours as living an agreeably soft life, filled with fine food and drink (though almost any cuisine looks tasty from the Netherlands, where a business lunch may consist of cheese sandwiches and a glass of buttermilk). Cross the border into Belgian Flanders though, and national stereotypes place you in Germanic northern Europe. Keep driving into French-speaking Wallonia and Belgians reckon you have hit the south. But head across the international border into France, and—by common consent—you are back in a region that is unmistakably northern. Fans of France’s far north praise the locals as generous, earthy and plain-spoken. But the landscape is often bleak, with run-down industrial towns and seemingly deserted villages of grey houses with closed shutters. Head farther into France, past central regions called snooty though prosperous, and the lavender fields and hillside olive groves of the south are reached. Popular French prejudice credits southerners with knowing how to enjoy life in a hot, sunny land, but also accuses them of idleness and dishonesty. . . .
Cross into northern Spain, and the clichés reverse. The north is cold and severe. Galicians are melancholic and Catalans proud and a bit miserly. The great bourgeois cities of the north, like Barcelona, look down on a backward south deemed too fond of fairs and fiestas to get anything done. To many Spaniards, these stereotypes are common sense: a reflection of real-world physical differences. But there is a hitch. Look at a map, and it becomes clear that one person’s north is another’s south. Take supposedly cold, northerly Barcelona. It lies some way south of the sun-baked, southern French city of Marseille, and enjoys almost the same climate.
A similar reset may be experienced in Italy. By common consent, northern Italy is business-minded and a bit unfriendly; the south is Mafia-infested, inefficient and poor.
I’m not sure what to make of this. One hypothesis is that cultural change is gradual and continuous, and that those in northern Spain and Italy are not really like the dour and business-like northern Europeans, they only seem that way relative to their compatriots in the south. Another hypothesis is that people sort within each country, and that those who feel more comfortable with the culture of Milan or Barcelona migrate up there from the south.
Later in the piece, a Vietnamese scholar is asked about Vietnam:
By reputation, he says, northerners are more interested in politics and jobs in government, but southerners are drawn to commerce. Northern winters are very cold, he goes on. And because that is hard on farmers, life as an official is an appealing alternative. In the hot, tropical south, there is only a dry season and a rainy season. “They have an abundance of fruit and fish and rice, especially in the Mekong delta. So people don’t have to work as hard. So they are maybe a bit lazy,” says Mr Le.
That is fascinating, I tell Mr Le from my office in Beijing, but also puzzling. For almost identical stereotypes—involving harsh winters that drive northerners into government, while southerners enjoy a life of ease—are applied to different bits of China. And here is another thing: on a map, China’s hot, southern, commercially minded regions lie above your frigid north. Mr Le pauses. “What is winter for Vietnamese people is maybe summer for other people,” he laughs.
Any other ideas?
PS. Regarding North Vietnam’s “very cold” winters, I’d suggest that Mr. Le spend a January in Wisconsin, where I grew up.
READER COMMENTS
Christophe Biocca
Feb 15 2022 at 7:42pm
If you drop the cultural notions for a second and just think about the underlying factor that either in truth or in perception drives these cultural differences, temperature, the part about the “flipping” at the borders is not surprising at all.
The average temperature of each country in the Netherlands > Belgium > France > Spain chain is colder than the one after it, and the northern part of each country is colder than the southern part of the country. Both of these are true and reasonable to expect. And neither depends on where exactly the borders are drawn. If Sicily becomes independent, the smaller Italy still has a southernmost/warmest part, next to a neighbor that’s even warmer on average.
Dylan
Feb 15 2022 at 10:02pm
Do the stereotypes flip in the southern hemisphere?
Jose Pablo
Feb 15 2022 at 10:41pm
If Acemoglu and Robinson were right (Why Nations Fail), bad “geographic luck” or cultural patterns are irrelevant when explaining differences in “prosperity”. Institutions are the key aspect and, in particular, the “institutional drift”: away from “extractive” institutions and towards “inclusive” institutions.
If they were right and we want to use their framework we should think not about differences in temperature but about:
a) “institutional differences” among regions within the same country. Whether actual or historical ie. the mafia in the south of Italy as an example of an extractive institution absent in the north or the “latifundia” in the south of Spain
b) possible reasons for the apparent pattern of higher prevalence of actual or historical extractive institutions in the south of each country. Even considering pure “randomness” as an option since the law of “poorer southerners” does not seem to be “universal”: think UK, USA or Germany
I don’t know. Very interesting post, anyway
Christophe Biocca
Feb 16 2022 at 7:23am
I don’t disagree with what you wrote, per se. It’s just not clear to me that the lazy/industrious stereotype has much to do with actual prosperity. It may just be borne out of the frequency with which you see someone deciding to take a nap in the sun, which is very much a consequence of temperature. Nice weather also allows for a whole host of cheap leisure options, which in theory would shift people towards more leisure even if the return to hard work was identical in both places.
Jose Pablo
Feb 16 2022 at 7:35am
Agree.
Not checking every mentioned case but at least for Italy, Spain and Portugal the north-south differences in stereotypes also reflect a significant difference in GDP per capita. Higher in the north.
I was referring to actual differences in north-south GDP per capita within a country more than to the stereotypes.
Guille
Feb 16 2022 at 11:50am
Also, stereotypes tend to stick. I would say Madrid, right in the middle of the country, is the most prosperous Spanish region. I also think most Spanish people would agree that Barcelona has been on the decline for the last decade. Still, the economist uses it as the example of a Spanish prosperous city to fit in the north-south model.
Also, not to mention specific Southern cities that appear to have been doing well more recently, like Malaga.
Arc
Feb 16 2022 at 2:16am
The south is hot, and full of hicks.
Ah, but in the next country over, that same area is the north, and is cold!
Therefore, you are stupid and there are no hicks.
Something clearly seems off about this.
As Christophe says, the temperature observation isn’t inconsistent at all, and is purely a matter of perspective. I may live in balmy Poland, but when visiting Helsinki, I have good reasons to be glad it’s in the south of its country.
As for the cultural stereotypes, I wouldnt be so quick to smuggle them in with the weather. For one, people have a strong preference for sticking within the borders of their own country, where they can speak the language they know. Europe experiences less migration between countries, than the US does between its states. While I do think the stereotypes are mostly nonsense, that there are border discontinuities is unsurprising.
Fazal Majid
Feb 16 2022 at 5:44am
Reminds me of Sam Houston’s speech urging Texas not to join the Confederacy:
Iskander
Feb 16 2022 at 6:48am
Accidentally posted before it was completed:
Historical differences in incomes due to different land labour ratios probably led to the stereotype in Vietnam. In Tonkin people had to work to stay alive, in Cochinchina the population was small enough that peoples’ needs could be met with less work.
Why the stereotype persists is one issue. I also don’t think that/know if similar arguments apply to the European cases.
Michael Rulle
Feb 16 2022 at 10:47am
I have no idea why there would be any theory about “north -south” concepts when crossing borders. But within borders—there is something to be said for it. Europe is really old——and so different from America it is amazing we can even communicate.
The two countries I have some first hand awareness about are France and Italy. I agree with French description. The north still remembers WWII. So does the south. It kind of fits. One thing about France that one also notices are the work laws——-some love them and some hate them. But the cliche fits as told in the article you read. I think it is WWII which makes it so.
As a 100% (4 grandparents) descendent from the village of Nusco in Avellino —-40 miles due east of Naples——I was taught it is a rough place. My Grandmother —-50 years ago—told me “never go there”—-if they recognize you they are as likely to kill you as not (her brother went back to claim land and “boom”). My sister said “screw it” and went anyway. She says it was crazy how many looked liked us. People just stay —-or maybe people do not move there.
But big Mafia is Sicily—-almost not even Italy. Northern Italy is like the Euro version of New England circa 1950s. Except it has been like that for centuries. With a little NYC (Milan) thrown in.
Rome and Paris were left out. While their histories are crazy long, and unique—-they are still cosmopolitan——and in many ways they remind me somewhat of NYC.
Phil h
Feb 16 2022 at 10:48am
My first move with all stereotypes is to assume that they’re nonsense. The null hypothesis is always that people are the same until proven otherwise, and I don’t accept even the stickiest of stereotypes as good evidence of difference. One of the non-differences that shaped this response for me came from empirical linguistics: they hung mics round the necks of a number of test subjects and found that men talk very slightly more than women, not the other way around, as sexist tropes had it. If we can’t get such a simple notion right about the people who live all around us, what hope do we have of being right about those who live elsewhere?
(A second experience you’ll be familiar with: marrying someone from China, and finding that Chinese people are just like English people, despite the radically different diet and geography and history and climate and language and lifestyle and everything.)
This is why I’m pretty insistent about rejecting cultural (and genetic) “explanations” of anything. I lean strongly towards the institutional thinking mentioned above.
Thinking this way, your question is best turned around: given that there are not, in fact, consistent differences between northern and southern regions, why do stereotypes seem consistent?
First, I’m not sure they are consistent. There are a *lot* of stereotypes; some of them align internationally and some don’t. (Note that the first stereotype mentioned about the southern Vietnamese was that they were interested in business. That’s not anything like the European stereotypes.) When they don’t match, we forget it and move on; when they do match, someone writes a think piece.
So all we’re seeing here is human pattern identification in random noise.
Mark Z
Feb 17 2022 at 5:28pm
My experience is the opposite: people to be radically different cultures tend to be, well, pretty different. There are exceptions, but I think to deny that personality types, behavioral patterns, values vary considerably with culture is rather farfetched. I would say stereotypes tend to be hypersensitive: that is, people often fabricate differences between people where there is none, but if there’s a noticeable difference between two groups, there’ll likely be a stereotype (but then once it’s we may not call it a stereotype, but just a fact, e.g., men tend to be more violent than women, Chinese people tend to be shorter than Europeans, etc.; few would call these ‘stereotypes’ but people ‘knew’ them well-before peer reviewed studies confirmed them). In conventional parlance, ‘stereotype’ almost seems to mean ‘generalization that’s actually false or at least untestable.’
Matthias
Feb 17 2022 at 5:45am
Marginally related:
Lee Kuan Yew was rather keen on air-conditioning to cut down on lazy siestas.
Today Singapore is both very tropical and very busy.
Sven
Feb 17 2022 at 3:14pm
The theory of relativity.
This phenomenon shows that everything is relative.
Rajat
Feb 18 2022 at 2:36am
I think the driver for these patterns is the varying agricultural productivity of land. In areas where land is highly fertile and productive, people can be released to engage in industry and trade, which promotes greater cultural and social ‘sophistication’ (including standoffishness). In areas where land is relatively unproductive (such that agriculture is labour-intensive) more workers need to remain working on the land, living more monotonous lives in smaller and closer communities (explaining the celebration of many festivals).
Consider that while the patterns you highlight might prevail in western Europe, the US and parts of Asia, but not everywhere. In England and Sweden, for example, the sophisticated cities are in the south – surrounded by the most productive land – and northerners are regarded as simple and crude. The same might be true in Canada. And of course, the pattern is reversed in Australia: Sydney and Melbourne are located in the more productive southern regions, with the northern tropical state of Queensland historically associated with activities like sugar cane growing involving indentured labour from Melanesia. My rough guess is that the latitude of the most agriculturally productive areas vary by continent: 40-55 degrees in Europe (due to the Gulf Stream), 35-50 in North America and 30-40 in Australia and South America (due to the cold southern ocean). Going to higher latitudes from there (as well as lower) tends to see you amongst peoples regarded as less sophisticated.
Rajat
Feb 18 2022 at 2:46am
Regarding the ‘flipping’ point, I agree with other commenters who have said this is a relative perception. While people in Italy might regard those from Milan as business-minded, and people in Spain might think the same of those from Barcelona, I doubt people from London, Paris, Amsterdam, Antwerp or Cologne regard the Milanese or Catalonians as their equals in work ethic.
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