I’m guessing that a lot of young people in America have not heard some of the true tales of socialism that people around my age heard as adults. So it’s worth telling them. Here are four stories, not chronological but in order of my certainty. The first two I am pretty much certain of. The last two I kind of remember.
Tale #1: Russian President Boris Yeltsin visiting a U.S. supermarket in Clear Lake, Texas, a suburb of Houston.
Shoppers and employees stopped him to shake his hand and say hello. In 1989, not everyone was carrying a phone and camera in their pocket so Yeltsin “selfies” weren’t a thing yet.
Yeltsin asked customers about what they were buying and how much it cost, later asking the store manager if one needed a special education to manage a store. In the Chronicle photos, you can see him marveling at the produce section, the fresh fish market, and the checkout counter. He looked especially excited about frozen pudding pops.
“Even the Politburo doesn’t have this choice. Not even Mr. Gorbachev,” he said.
The fact that stores like these were on nearly every street corner in America amazed him. They even offered free cheese samples. According to Asin, Yeltsin didn’t leave empty-handed, as he was given a small bag of goodies to enjoy on his trip.
About a year after the Russian leader left office, a Yeltsin biographer later wrote that on the plane ride to Yeltsin’s next destination, Miami, he was despondent. He couldn’t stop thinking about the plentiful food at the grocery store and what his countrymen had to subsist on in Russia.
This is from Craig Hlavaty, “When Boris Yeltsin went grocery shopping in Clear Lake,” blog.chron.com, April 7, 2014.
Tale #2: Bill Meckling Speaks to “Counterpart” in the Soviet Union.
My boss, and Dean, at the Graduate School of Management (now Simon School) at the University of Rochester from 1975 to 1979 was the late William H. Meckling. He was one of my 3 favorite bosses and, in fact, was one of my heroes for his role in helping end the draft.
Sometime during my 4 years there, Bill told me the following story, fresh from his trip to the Soviet Union. He was talking to a guy there who was kind of his counterpart: a Dean, although I don’t think they called him that, of a Soviet business school, whatever that was. The guy asked Meckling “Who decides how many people get MBAs in a year in the United States?” Meckling answered, “No one decides.” The guy leaned in closer and said, “Don’t worry. I won’t tell anyone. You can tell me.” Meckling responded, “No one decides. I, with input from my faculty, decide for our school and I assume other deans do the same.” The guy didn’t believe him.
Tale #3: U.S. Admiral takes Soviet Admiral to an American superstore. (Recall that this one is vague in my memory. The reason I basically believe it is that it’s plausible.)
After the Berlin Wall fell, relations between high-level U.S. military officers and their Soviet counterparts got much less frosty. I think it was a U.S. Admiral visiting the Naval Postgraduate School, where I taught, who told this story.
The U.S. Admiral was hosting the Soviet Admiral, who wanted to see where people shopped. So the U.S. Admiral took him to a Walmart. The Soviet Admiral, seeing the plenty, said to the U.S. Admiral, “OK, I know you’re showing me something you’ve planned in advance. I don’t believe this is what normal Americans can buy.” (I’m guessing he was muttering “Potemkin Village” under his breath. )
So the U.S. Admiral said, “Fair enough. Tell me which direction you want to drive, up to 20 miles, and we’ll drive in that direction. We’ll stop at the first major store we see.” That satisfied the Soviet Admiral. If I recall correctly, the next store was a Costco or a K-Mart. The Soviet Admiral was suitably impressed.
Tale #4: Soviet Admiral sees parking lot at a typical U.S. Navy Base.
I think this one was told by a U.S. Admiral visiting the Naval Postgraduate School. When the Soviet Admiral saw all the cars in the parking lot, he asked the U.S. Admiral who owned them. The U.S. Admiral answered that U.S. Navy officers and enlistees, mainly the latter, owned them. The Soviet Admiral then asked, “How do you get the enlistees to come to work after the weekend?”
I don’t recall that the U.S. Admiral told his answer. A good, somewhat snarky and somewhat misleading, answer might have been “They owe, they owe, so off to work they go.”
If you really want to “get” socialism, read Red Plenty, which I reviewed extensively here. (Scroll down about halfway.)
UPDATE: Brent Buckner, in a comment below, has a fascinating story about Gorbachev’s visit to a Canadian farm when he was the Soviet Union’s agriculture secretary in 1983. It’s here.
READER COMMENTS
Bill
Feb 6 2020 at 1:27pm
Good stories. I have one of my own.
In May 1990, I traveled to Russian with a group of economists from the U.S. and Australia to attend a series of meetings with some economists from Russia. One afternoon, we strolled around Moscow near Red Square, accompanied by a guide provided by our hosts. I spotted a young entrepreneur selling T-shirts and purchased a couple to take home to my kids. Our guide expressed his displeasure, saying he didn’t approve of such transactions between private parties, as they didn’t involve the state. I asked who was harmed by this exchange between a willing buyer and a willing seller. He replied the state was harmed. I asked if the young entrepreneur was not a part of the state. He suggested that the seller may have stolen the materials for his T-shirts from a state-owned warehouse. One of my fellow travelers intervened to change the subject and we moved on.
nobody.really
Feb 6 2020 at 3:07pm
Three Soviet stories—all silly, but one ostensibly true.
1–Native pride: US journalist chatting with Soviet guard standing at attention outside the new, brutalist housing complex.
>“So … really? This is the big, new complex everyone is supposedly so exited about?”
>“YES. IT IS.”
>“Wow. You must so proud.”
>“YES. WE MUST.”
2–Political science: Two political scientists brag about their systems.
–US political scientists: “With the aid of computers, we can often say who won the presidential election within hours of the polls closing.”
–Russian political scientist: “Big deal. I can tell you who will win our presidential election years before the polls open.“
3–Taxis: An economist—I forget who—was giving a lecture on a panel about how private market forces arise even in socialist nations. For example, to hail a taxi in the Soviet Union, you’d hold up a finger. But since the state set fares so low, drivers didn’t have a lot of incentive to pick people up. So if you were in a hurry, you might offer to double the fare. But how? “Imagine you’re holding up a finger, and the empty taxi just drives past you. What would you do? You’d do THIS”—and the economist demonstrated a large gesture holding up TWO fingers, together, in a kind of scooping motion. With this gesture, he intended to show how a pedestrian would signal a willingness to pay a double fare.
“Well, of course you would!” said everyone on the panel—apparently recognizing the act as a common (perhaps Italian?) gesture meaning “Up yours!”
Hugh E. Brennan
Feb 6 2020 at 3:12pm
When the Jewish Russians were enabled to come to the US in the late 70s due to the deal brokered, if I recall, by “Scoop” Jackson, many landed in suburban New Jersey.
Two stories stand out in my memory. One fellow was being driven to his new apartment. Driving down a street in Bergen County he saw one of those big old console TV stereos sitting on the curb for trash day. He commented that not TV, regardless of how old or broken was ever thrown out in the USSR. They were patched up, repaired, rebuilt, whatever it took, they were so difficult to acquire that they were never disposed of. Right then, he knew America was too rich for the Soviets to overcome.
Another recently settled refugee was sent to the grocery store with a list. His wife’s first request was shampoo. He stood in the supermarket’s haircare section and became immobilized. The cornucopia of brands and products, the plethora of choices left him transfixed. The quotidian American shopping experience left him a victim of Stendahl syndrome- stunned by the glittering profusion of Breck, Sassoon, Revlon, etc. At that moment he learned the virtue of capitalism.
David Henderson
Feb 6 2020 at 4:37pm
Great story. Reminds me of the scene with Robin Williams in the supermarket trying to decide on which coffee to buy in the movie Moscow on the Hudson. “‘Scuse, please, where is coffee line?”
Alan Goldhammer
Feb 6 2020 at 4:03pm
David – you should have titled this blog post “Tales of Communism” It’s fine to pick examples from Russia (Yeltsin) and the former USSR, but you are misleading readers, particular the younger ones, in thinking that these are common examples that ought to warn people against the “evils” of socialism. One might point to health care in a number of European countries that are socialistic in their design and offer superior health outcomes and at a lower cost than the patchwork US system.
David Henderson
Feb 6 2020 at 4:38pm
Good point, kind of. My stories ARE, as you say, of Communism, but the stories would not be much different if they were of totally socialist societies. The examples you’re pointing to are socialism in a certain sector, just as we have socialism in K-12 and in postal services.
David Seltzer
Feb 6 2020 at 5:12pm
One might point to health care in a number of European countries that are socialistic (sic) in their design and offer superior health outcomes and at a lower cost than the patchwork US system.
Really Alan? One point in the data set. I recently had a total hip replacement in april of 2019. The 30 minute procedure was state of the art. I was home the same day walking and climbing stairs. Two weeks ago I had cataract surgery. Again 20 minute state of the art procedure. Both procedures were performed less than two weeks after the appointments were made. I would have waited months for these procedures in Canada or the UK. Ultimately I would have had to seek private providers in either situation. It’s no mistake nordic countries are moving to more privatized care. Heaven forbid a person develops a serious ailment in one of those socialist systems. They’ll expire long before they are seen.
Ian Fellows
Feb 6 2020 at 5:58pm
David S.: Have you actually lived in any of these countries? By pretty much every objective measure health outcomes, especially for major illnesses, are much better in other developed nations. It is not a huge coincidence that they all have some form of socialized medicine. I’m pretty sure the area where the US has other countries beat is wait time for elective procedures, and even that is only among those who have insurance.
David H.: In addition to the fact that socialism != communism, and to make the equivalence is disingenuous, it is worth noting that the biggest economic success story of the modern era happened under the rule of the Communist Party of China.
David Seltzer
Feb 7 2020 at 11:22am
Ian, Yes! I’ve lived in Italy the Netherlands and London. My personal experience with the NHS was, to say the least, miserable. I had a garden variety cold that was developing into bronchitis. I waited nearly seven hours in a que to see a harried physician. When I was seen, he basically prescribed aspirin as an antibiotic like deoxycycline was not available through the system. In the US, a physician would have prescribed it and I would retrieve it from one of several of pharmacies in my small town of 16,000 in a matter of hours if not minutes. Finally. My total hip replacement was not elective. It was necessary as I could no longer walk without severe pain. In NHS, I would have endured mind numbing pain for months.
robc
Feb 7 2020 at 12:03pm
Or cash.
Henri Hein
Feb 7 2020 at 6:49pm
I grew up in Denmark, and lived there intermittently since graduating from college. David Seltzer’s characterization is a closer match to my own experience than your description is.
David Henderson
Feb 7 2020 at 8:02pm
Ian,
You’re right when you say “the biggest economic success story of the modern era happened under the rule of the Communist Party of China.” But it wasn’t Communism or socialism that was responsible. It was a shift toward more economic freedom and respect for private property.
Talk about being “disingenuous!”
zeke5123
Feb 8 2020 at 10:00am
I am not sure that is correct. I recall that the US medical system was more successful on treatments that are largely independent of lifestyles compared to European healthcare systems, but European healthcare systems look better because the people are by-and-large healthier.
Christophe Biocca
Feb 6 2020 at 8:09pm
Canada is especially bad because there are often bans/restriction on private provision/insurance, so if the public system’s wait times are an issue for the care you need, your only alternative is going outside of the country.
Some of those provisions have been struck down, with the courts considering the combination of long wait times and bans on alternatives to be a violation of human rights.
Mark Brophy
Feb 6 2020 at 11:44pm
I was at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota a few years ago talking to a Canadian with an unusual wrist injury. He was bounced around Canada for 4 years before they finally gave up and sent him to Mayo. He didn’t get paid during those 4 years as a deisel mechanic for buses but his employer paid him minimum wage for washing buses. In the United States, insurance would cover his loss of income.
The population of Canada is small, so there are many specialists in the United States that don’t exist in Canada. Medical care is so specialized that a friend in Texas is going to Germany for a prostate operation that’s been performed for a much longer time there than in the United States. If a Brit needed the same operation, would they send him to Germany and pay for it?
robc
Feb 7 2020 at 8:12am
The US system is a mix of very good and very bad. See the recent econtalk on the Surgery Center of Oklahoma for an example of the former.
Also, the example I always use, if you cut off your hand anywhere in the world, DEMAND to be take to Kleinert Kutz in Louisville, KY. This is probably less true than it was 30 years ago, primarily because they have trained so many of the world’s best hand surgeons, but they are still the top of the line.
Michael Pettengill
Feb 10 2020 at 11:34am
Almost never would that happen in the US. Maybe 20% of US employers offer full time workers short term disability payment, seldom for more than 1-2 years.
Long term disability pays the difference between SSDI, pension, and 80% of income, best case.
That is fading as the private sector socialism (a la Germany’s Kaiser alternative to socialism) is being eaten away for all but the top corporate executives. Reagan et al destroying unions eliminates the US corporate welfare state thus driving increasing demand for a voter/worker driven government welfare state to replace it.
The corporate welfare system could be limited to white male white and blue collar corporate workers, but a government system since Civil Rights must apply to all equally, which has harmed lots of white men, but provided gains to the rest.
Fewer and fewer get the white corporate male favor of the 50s.
Michael Pettengill
Feb 10 2020 at 11:08am
But you are rich. Millions of Americans can’t get the medical care you describe, and thus must resort to welfare, which then gets them deemed disabled under Social Security, eventually qualifying for Medicare (with extra help) so they can finally get hip replacement and cataract surgery.
The criteria for SSDI is they are unemployable for medical reasons for any job they would otherwise qualify for. So, for cataracts, they can no longer get a CDL driver license renewed, nor drive to work, living in a rural area. With no health insurance, no doctor with do the cataract surgery, but not having dependent children, he doesn’t qualify more Medicaid based on the GOP legislature’s opposition to Obama.
Ditto for hip problems. Thus not employable for any job in his community.
Delay to getting medical care in the US, 3-5 years.
Note, applications, waiting lists, for SSDI fell several years after Obamacare paid for expanded Medicaid in States that expanded it, like Kentucky, but not in States that didn’t.
Medicaid is government single payer covering as much as States decide, and has been since 1965. But only for certain people, most being as healthy as those working for Microsoft, Ford, and you.
You need to measure waiting times in the US for the former 40 year old coal miner in West Virginia. If he gets work, it’s part time at low wages, and he has no health insurance. If he’s lucky, RAM comes to a town near him every few years with volunteer doctors who set up assembly line treatment for 16-30 hours.
Otherwise, African dictatorships have the best US health care because the dictator flies into the US for the top medical care in the world, better than what you get.
Matthias Görgens
Feb 6 2020 at 9:39pm
Surpassing the US in healthcare is a low bar.
(And complaints about waiting times and other kinds of queueing are very common for eg the NHS.)
The Singaporean system is the one to learn from.
Charley Hooper
Feb 7 2020 at 1:41am
Many of the health outcomes that make this country look bad have little to do with health care and everything to do with risky and self-destructive behaviors. Those things that are clearly health care-related frequently score better in this country. A good example is 5-year survival rates for cancer victims. To survive cancer for five years generally requires a good health care system.
Andre
Feb 7 2020 at 8:18am
Or earlier detection.
robc
Feb 7 2020 at 9:23am
Early detection would also be a sign of a good healthcare system.
Andre
Feb 7 2020 at 11:46am
Not necessarily. At some level, detection is pointless, costly, and counterproductive. Taken to extremes, everyone has cancer, and if we treated it all, adverse effects would go through the roof, but mortality wouldn’t budget.
What needs to be measured is, ceteris paribus, the effect of detection on morbidity and mortality rates.
If those aren’t dropping but “survival” is, then you’re not saving people, you’re just detecting earlier and overtreating.
H. Gilbert Welch has spoken and written a fair amount about the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfZFskoifw
robc
Feb 7 2020 at 12:00pm
Good points. I almost added “except for Prostate” onto my comment, for that reason.
zeke5123
Feb 8 2020 at 10:01am
I should’ve kept scrolling before I responded!
TMC
Feb 7 2020 at 1:37pm
“offer superior health outcomes and at a lower cost”
Like the others above, I wish people would stop saying this. Yes, the cost is higher, but No, the outcomes are not in any way better outside the US.
Walter Boggs
Feb 13 2020 at 2:20pm
Waiting for care is a cost. Travel to the location for care is a cost. Lack of choice is a cost. When we’re told that other countries provide care at lower cost, are they taking these and similar costs into account?
Bruce Meckling
Feb 6 2020 at 6:45pm
On the broader topic of relative freedoms, another story Dean Meckling related about experiences in Russia was having a conversation with a Russian academic during a group tour of a building. During their conversation, if they were left any distance behind the full group, the Russian academic would nervously note this and request that they please catch up to the group. Dean Meckling’s assumption was that the man worried about appearing to be having a lengthy private conversation with an American, and how that might be interpreted as disloyal or even traitorous.
Nathan S Benedict
Feb 6 2020 at 9:47pm
Another joke about the Soviet economy. An elderly woman is sitting in the park. She sees two men working. The first man digs a hole in the grass with a shovel. He then walks 20 feet down the line and starts digging a new hole. Meanwhile, the second man shovels all the dirt back into the first hole and tamps it down. This continues for several holes until the woman finally asks the men what they are doing.
“Is city beautification project!” replies the first man. “I dig hole, Ivan plants tree in hole, and then Dmitri puts dirt back in hole!”
“But no one is planting trees!” replies the old woman.
“Da, Ivan is out sick today. But does that mean that we should not get paid?!”
Thaomas
Feb 7 2020 at 10:30am
The grandfather of all these stories is when the Soviets showed the film “Grapes of Wrath” about the exploitation of American farmworkers, the public saw farmworkers fleeing the Dustbowl IN CARS.
BucketofFried
Feb 7 2020 at 9:15pm
#2 brings to mind a passage from the book, The Sword and the Shield, about the KGB. In the book, the author details the extensive success the KGB achieved during the 1920s through the 1940s in acquiring science and technology secrets (be they governmental or commercial trade secrets) for the US. The author goes so far as positing that in no time in history had any country or people used espionage so productively to transfer such large swaths of information. Despite this success, the Soviet leadership still thought they were missing critical elements of the picture. Why?
The Soviets assumed there was in fact a smoke-filled room where a small coterie made all these science and technology decisions. They could not grasp, or would not accept, that a society could be successful without a prime mover.
As a post script, the source of the KGB’s success was not so much related to their own capabilities. Rather, it was due to the widespread communist sympathies many in US industry and government had. Once it was discovered that the Soviet system bore bitter fruit, the KGBs pipelines narrowed. Great book, by the way.
Brent Buckner
Feb 8 2020 at 10:47am
Gorbachev’s 1983 visit to Canada; in his memoirs he
“dwells instead on a stop he and Mr. Whelan made at a large cattle ranch in Alberta. He found the visit, he recalled, “inspiring” and educational in contrast to what he later referred to as the “decline in economic incentives and inefficient use of resources” in the stagnant Soviet agricultural system.”
From https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-walk-that-changed-the-world
David Henderson
Feb 8 2020 at 4:57pm
GREAT story, Brent.
So important that I’ll update the post with a link.
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