European Scientists and America

A friend of mine who recently finished his PHD in economics from NYU had some interesting observations about European elites and anti-Americanism. There were many Europeans in his program and anti-Americanism was common among them. I asked him how this could be so: here they were coming to the US and receiving top-flite graduate education and yet they hated America. ‘Why the seeming disconnect?’ I wondered.

He said that it was simple. ALL of the European students knew that if they wanted to get to the top of their field (not just for economics but for almost any other serious academic discipline) they had NO CHOICE but to come to the United States. For whatever reason, this fact of life prompts a significant amount of resentment among European elites. Perhaps it is because they all have a strong sense of the importance of European intellectuals and European intellectual institutions in history. But the fact is today the United States is home to the most important elite intellectual institutions. And this, apparently, drives intelligent Europeans crazy.

Huh? I know guys who sit on barstools all day who hate aAmerica, too. That comment just strikes me as uh, elitist itself.

I do not fear European or other foreign Scientists as threat to American Jobs. I do fear the loss of Employment for the basic manufacturing and Trade skills coming from outsourcing of Production. No Economy can survive as an Elitist Employer. It is not provision of trained Elitist labor which We need, but provision of funding for the total Labor force, so they can purchase the products of the Economy. lgl

Or their wives! But only if they shave ;P

I always like to say “Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery”

>>Should we be upset that European scientists are coming here to take American jobs?

I bet that there are American scientists who are upset, who feel that their wages are being suppressed.

>>everyone recognizes that American science runs on foreign talent.

God knows that is true. American primary education (or lack of it) ensures that.

There aren’t ANY scientists sore about H1B visas? I find that hard to believe. But then, a lot of scientists are academics, and maybe don’t view H1B visa recipeints in the same way as, say, computer programmers (where IS Steve these days?).

“I always like to say “Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery””

That’s a good one. Indeed, actions speak louder than words.

>>Since the US only has a fraction of the world’s population, one would expect many of the best scientists here to be foreigners….even if the US’s education system was equal to the rest of the world.

There are 2 or 3 issues burried in there.

Arnold’s post references information that the US economy is drawing scientists like moths to a flame.

The second issue is the high quality of US universities compared to the rest of the world. That in and of itself is drawing scientists, both to get trained as well as to work.

I don’t dispute either of those points.

The third point is to question if the US is itself producing enough scientists. You can question what “enough” means. But we are not graduating as many people with degrees in science as we used to, and that, to me, is evidence of there not being enough scientists.

I think that the major reason is that, going into college, kids don’t have a strong science background. If you don’t have a strong science background from your priamry education, you will not major in science in college.

It may just be that the avergae INdian/Chinam/Euorpan is just smartr than you’r average Joe aAmericna. Which is fine. It the ruthless one’s you hae to worrry abowt.

Americans, who have long celebrated the sweetness of dynamic capitalism, must get used to the concept that it works for non-Americans, too… Isn’t the emergence of a vibrant middle class in an otherwise poor country a spectacular achievement, the very confirmation of the wonders of globalization – not to mention a new market for American goods and services? And if this transition pinches a little, aren’t Americans being a tad hypocritical by whining about it?

besides the ‘creative class’ supposedly what come next after ‘knowledge worker’ is already leaving.

>>It may just be that the avergae INdian/Chinam/Euorpan is just smartr than you’r average Joe aAmericna.

Whew! That’s a troll!

I don’t know about the Indians, but the Chinese, being East Asians, have higher average IQs than the average American. So, yes, the average Chinese is smarter than the average American, if you believe that IQ means anything.

Most Scientists go where there is the best research facilities, most often the arena of best salaries as well. The actual immigration has more to do with American academic pretensions, than it has to do with European desire to move to America. American academia must have its mixed bag of professors. I remember taking Calculus from a Korean who could not speak English. lgl

The third point is to question if the US is itself producing enough scientists. You can question what “enough” means. But we are not graduating as many people with degrees in science as we used to, and that, to me, is evidence of there not being enough scientists.

Are you sure about this? Certainly we are graduating more computer science majors than we were 30-50 years ago. I don’t have any hard numbers on other sciences but I would imagine we are producing as many degrees as before…even if the percentages are slipping the fact that so many more go to college now than before would make up for the shift in majors.

>>It’s not exactly an example of the virtues of buccaneering private enterprise.

Take a look at how British and French universities are structured. Our system is no where near as centralized and politicised as those two.

We also have a much higher proportion of private universites.

You can read all about it in this week’s Economist.

Free markets versus restricted markets and as screwed up as we are, we’re still the best game in town. Simple as that; so that huge sucking sound you hear is actually a large brain drain emptying its contents on our shores . Nothing to be upset about.

That was pretty much a softball of a question Arnold. I think he’s trying to bait the handful of socialists that come here so we can have ourselves a little shooting gallery.

I was making note the other day that every European I’ve personally encountered here in the states, that spent at least the first 20 years of their lives on the Continent, is a dyed in the wool collectivist.

Socialist is too narrow of a term so I opt for collectivist. They still think that Germany (or whatever Old-World backwater they hail from) has the highest standard of living and that America should adopt all of these various European practices and so on. All the while growing fat on our capitalist free market.

The typical conversation goes something like; “Germany has the highest standard of living” (incredulous look from me – so they continue) “Oh, I know the unemployment is 10% but, blah blah blah.”

And for Englishman poster AJE;

You are both a hypocrite and a simpleton. Anti-American sentiment goes much further back than George W and as smug as you may try and feel about your own situation, actions truly speak louder than words. Complaining about the system of which you prefer only marks you as a person of very limited understanding and questionable powers of reason, regardless of what you care to acknowledge.

So excuse us if we dismiss you as a crackpot.

Ray – not so. My point is that a national economic structure is complex and inconsistant. Whilst the US academic system is superior to the current British one, this does not mean that in order to benefit from it I lose my right to an opinion on related matters.
I think that most US immigrants would resent the implication that we do not have the right to criticise the system.
Since most academic positions are the result of voluntary contract, is it ‘hypocritical’ of my uni to expect me to turn up to class sober?or to have an opinion of my working habits? Clearly academics and institutions benefit each other, and will continue to do so on a foundation of inquiry and debate. This is an American quality, and why I am here!