
Public employee labor unions often require their members to pay dues in support of political lobbying activities, even if the individual does not agree with the union position. Collectivists tend to support these policies, whereas individualists oppose policies that force people to support views with which they do not agree.
Something similar occurs in US presidential elections. When a majority of voters in a state vote for candidate X, supporters of candidate Y have no say in the final outcome. They might as well have just stayed home. All that matters is the view of the collective—the state in this case—minority views don’t matter. In other countries, voters for the losing candidate in a given state still have their votes count in the national election. They would not want to stay home, as doing so would make it less likely that their candidate wins. Their vote counts as an individual, not just a member of a collective.
Interestingly, although collectivists tend to support ignoring minority views and forcing public employee union members to speak as one, when it comes to the Electoral College they tend to have the opposite view. And while individualists tend to oppose these collectivist union policies, they tend to support the Electoral College.
I am a rare exception, I have always opposed both forms of collectivism.
READER COMMENTS
Chris
Feb 5 2020 at 3:36pm
I’m agnostic about the EC – people speak entirely too confidently about what the outcomes of elections would be under a different set of rules.
I am, however, opposed to loopholes as an attempt to circumvent the EC. Just submit an amendment already and be done with it.
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 6:51pm
Yes, the loophole route probably would not work. Just repeal it.
robc
Feb 5 2020 at 3:44pm
EC makes sense in a union of sovereign states.
I am anti-collective, but unless Sumner is going full anarchist, he is going to have to accept some collectivism.
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 6:51pm
robc. I’ll accept as much collectivism as is needed. But other countries don’t need this, and neither do we.
Christophe Biocca
Feb 5 2020 at 4:13pm
Not for the Westminster system with first-past-the post, which I think is still the most common system out there?
That model does solve the Democrat-in-Texas/Republican-in-California problem, and the good news is that each state can move to a representative-per-congressional-district model if they wish (Nebraska and Maine are examples).
Although if you want to minimize the variance in the expected impact of a vote, you need stochastic voting. Then each vote has a 1/total chance of being the decisive vote.
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 6:53pm
Our system is even worse than those. But I was referring to presidential elections in other countries, which are generally based on the majority vote.
Miguel Madeira
Feb 10 2020 at 1:37pm
It is not – almost all democracies use some variante of Proportional Representation; however, one of the few countries that use FPTP is India – the most populous democracy of the world (then, perhaps FPTP could be considered “common” if we are talking about people instead of countries).
TMC
Feb 5 2020 at 4:38pm
Your logic extends to the national level as well. If I’m part of the 49.9% I might have as well stay home, which may illustrate that the EC is good as a tool against the tyranny of the majority. If the two coasts get all the elective power, the heartland might as well as never vote again.
John Hall
Feb 5 2020 at 5:02pm
The electoral college didn’t originally link all state electors to the winner of the popular vote in each state (it still doesn’t in every state, Nebraska and Maine take a more sensible approach). The winner-take-all nature of the electoral college isn’t mandated by the constitution, rather it can be thought of more as a consequence of giving state legislators the power to decide how the electoral college votes would be divied up. Each state has a strong incentive to move from a district-based system to a winner-take all approach. This is the problem with Christophe Biocca’s point. It’s not stable for large states to switch. We are in the equilibrium and only a constitutional amendment would get us out of it.
I also think that your point proves too much. What if I change your line “When a majority of voters in a state vote for candidate X, supporters of candidate Y have no say in the final outcome. They might as well have just stayed home.” to “When a majority of voters for candidate X, supporters of candidate Y have no say in the final outcome. They might as well have just stayed home.” Note that I crossed out the “in a state” line. Why does the state election matter so much for your point to be true?
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 6:56pm
Every vote counts in a normal country like France. When the final election tally is presented, 100% of votes are counted. Not so in the Electoral College system. If you want to insist that 100% of Electoral College votes are counted, that’s fine, but that means our presidents are elected by 538 individuals. Is that democracy?
robc
Feb 6 2020 at 6:19am
No, it is not democracy, just as planned by the founders.
IIRC, SC was the last state to even have a popular vote for Pres, the state House chose their electors. Which is a form of democracy too…the state House was democratically chosen, so it was representative democracy.
Which is the same thing as the current EC, only with a further level of abstraction.
I would support an amendment requiring every state to adapt the Maine/Nebraska process.
Miguel Madeira
Feb 10 2020 at 1:58pm
It was? Or what your founders planned was a system where you will vote for your local electors, and then these electors will choose a president (NOT a system where, for all effects, you are already voting in presidential candidates and the electors are already linked to a candidate)?
Christophe Biocca
Feb 5 2020 at 7:52pm
It’s true that large states do not have an incentive to switch to a per-district model, but they have other options:
The NPVIC effectively turns the EC into a popular vote.
Large non-swing states can increase their impact by switching to random ballot.
Lorenzo from Oz
Feb 5 2020 at 5:36pm
How do you have winners of any sort of election where this does not happen? Even if you have proportional representation, those who voted for what end up being the minority parties are in that situation.
I look at elections and voting as the culmination points of ongoing processes of political bargaining. So I am more interested in how they work as part of that larger process of bargaining and decision making and less impressed by just looking at voting in isolation. The Electoral College drives winning Presidential candidates to campaign in particular ways and target particular groups: that is really where the for or against arguments should be aimed.
After all, straight popular vote also has that effect and would create its own incentives–for example, to encourage States to inflate their voting population. Unless, of course, the US was prepared to entirely federalise federal elections.
It is also, btw, why I am so hostile to the PC/Woke phenomenon: it is very obviously an attempt to so control what people can legitimately express in the public (or, indeed, private) sphere as to seek to turn elections (no matter how scrupulously conducted) into rituals where no “illegitimate” concerns can be expressed, let alone acted upon.
Lorenzo from Oz
Feb 5 2020 at 5:50pm
The push to so control the public space that the end logic is to ritualise elections is invading news rooms.
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 7:02pm
You said:
“How do you have winners of any sort of election where this does not happen? Even if you have proportional representation, those who voted for what end up being the minority parties are in that situation.”
I disagree. They gain seats in proportion to their vote. So it still make sense to vote, even if you don’t expect to be in the majority.
With the Electoral College, the losers in a given state have no influence at all. It is a system that is based on the premise that all that matters is what “California thinks”, not what individuals in California think.
Robert EV
Feb 7 2020 at 9:55pm
Hey Lorenzo,
This “PC” phenomenon exists on both sides of aisle. And if “born again Christian” isn’t the evangelical analog of “woke”, then I don’t know what is.
Philo
Feb 5 2020 at 5:39pm
In any decision made by majority voting the minority loses out, whether it constitutes 1% of the voters or 49%. The minority voter’s effect on the particular decision is nil; he “might as well have just stayed home.” Is this “collectivism”?
What about a two-stage democratic process? When, e.g., the Senate makes a decision–by majority vote of the Senators–the individual voter, if he voted in the minority in the Senatorial election, is represented by someone against whom he voted. Is this “collectivism”?
And if so, what alternative do you propose?
Scott Sumner
Feb 5 2020 at 7:06pm
Philo, There is a difference between influencing the result and losing, and having zero influence on the final result.
If the result in France is 12,453,735 to 11,431,923, then the losing side can see their vote tallied. Not so in the Electoral College system, if the result is 300 to 238. This is how someone can win while getting fewer votes than their opponent.
Philo
Feb 5 2020 at 10:03pm
I asked: Do you oppose representative systems, where decisions are made by representatives elected by majority votes of subgroups of the people as a whole? The losers in the votes for those representatives will have had no input into the decision made by the representatives.
Scott Sumner
Feb 6 2020 at 12:49am
But they will have had input into the choice of the representative.
robc
Feb 6 2020 at 6:24am
That is exactly what the EC is — they are our representatives in the vote for President. Just like the House and Senate make laws and confirm judges (Senate) as representatives of the people, the EC votes for Prez as representatives of the people.
Its the exact same thing. If you oppose one, you have to oppose both. Well, you dont have to, but not for the reasons you are arguing.
Scott Sumner
Feb 7 2020 at 12:38pm
robc, And if you support the EC, then you must support the right of labor unions to compel their members to support union causes?
I think you missed the point of the post.
robc
Feb 7 2020 at 2:02pm
I do, at least for private sector unions. If you don’t want your dues to go to those causes, don’t joint the union.
As far as pubsec unions go, I agree with George Meany.
Thaomas
Feb 6 2020 at 7:37am
A rather strained analogy. For unions there is an easy out opt out of the portion of dues going to political activities.
There are two aspects to the Electoral College. 1) It defines the units in which votes are aggregated. That was its original justification. 2) It is in practice anti-majoritarian. This is incidental. Each has its own costs and benefits.
Tom
Feb 6 2020 at 8:27am
One small thing we can be grateful for is that at least the Electoral College is based on relatively permanent state boundaries instead of gerrymandered districts designed by the ruling party.
Chris
Feb 6 2020 at 11:52am
Unions, like professional organizations, are supposed to push for policies that best support their members professionally. This means that they should be taking sides in politics at all levels.
The electoral college on the other hand, is not looking at what is best for its state per se, but what the majority of its voters choose, based on a wide range of non-state-specific beliefs. The EC probably made more sense in a time when the states were more autonomous, but at this point, there is little demographic change happening at the state border.
Also, a somewhat separate point, but union dues going to politics is really not that different than someone’s labor going to a business that contributes to a candidate. That business is essentially skimming a little off the top of your possible wage to support management’s political desires.
Henri Hein
Feb 6 2020 at 5:02pm
I don’t disagree with the point, but a problem I have with the many critics of the EC is I sense a double standard. As Christophe Biocca and John Hall point out, the winner-take-all method is entirely optional. Among Californians, which tend more towards collectivism, I have encountered many vocal critics of the EC. When I suggest they should then also be in favor of California going to a district-based system, they demur. That makes me suspect the motivation for being against EC is partisan opportunism, not based on principle.
Robert EV
Feb 7 2020 at 10:18pm
Hi Henri,
Wouldn’t a district based system just encourage gerrymandering? Why would someone be in favor of this versus a proportional system?
I had to search “district based system electoral” to understand what you meant by the term, and a top link was this relevant example, showing a gerrymandered system arising from what was previously an at-large system: http://www.moorparkca.gov/799/District-Based-Elections
Principly I’m for proportionality when possible, though obviously this can’t happen for the presidency (at least not a one-person presidency), so the best situation here seems to me (based on principles) is one-person one-vote majority rules.
District-based voting isn’t anywhere near those principles; it doesn’t even seem any better than the status quo.
Robert EV
Feb 7 2020 at 10:08pm
I also oppose both forms of collectivism. As evidence, an excerpt from an email sent to my public-sector union political person on a survey on who my union should endorse for president (and what issues we find most important):
Part of the response:
Note that our union doesn’t give money to candidates, but does spend money lobbying for issues of importance to us, a la Chris at Feb 6 2020 at 11:52am. Also, our political person is a genuinely nice person.
Robert EV
Feb 7 2020 at 10:09pm
Sorry, this was a survey on which candidates our union should seek input from. The vote on who to endorse was later.
Phil
Feb 10 2020 at 2:03pm
FYI, Janus v. AFSCME (2018) ended mandatory dues for public unions. The only ones paying dues now are employees who voluntarily choose to.
Comments are closed.