
For most of the past 50 years, there’s been a consensus among economists that “industrial policies” are counterproductive. Nothing has occurred in recent years that would lead a reasonable person to alter that view. And yet as Noah Smith recently pointed out, neoliberalism is rapidly losing ground to advocates of regulation, subsidies and protectionism:
The really important thing about Biden’s policies, though, is that they don’t even gesture halfheartedly in the direction of “free trade”. The idea of free trade never carried much water with the general public; now, it carries essentially no water with the political class or the intellectual class either. The free-trade consensus is dead as a doornail. . . .
These fights over the nature of industrial policy will be fierce, and sometimes even bitter. But we shouldn’t let them obscure the larger point, which is that both parties now agree on the need for industrial policy, and on many of its broad contours. It appears that America has found its new economic policy consensus. What remains to be seen are the results — how effectively the new policy regime can be implemented, and how well it achieves its goals. It’ll also be interesting to see how the economics profession contributes to the effort (a topic for another post).
I would like to believe that the economic profession would stick to its principles, but I fear that influential policymakers will always be able to find economists who tell them what they wish to hear. (At least it won’t be Larry Summers.)
Almost everywhere in the world, nationalism and statism are on the rise. Not long ago, economic development in a developing nation containing 1.4 billion of our fellow human beings would be regarded as good news, now Smith seems to almost relish the fact that our policies have damaged the Chinese economy:
Overall, the outcomes were negative for the U.S., which was hurt by the [Trump] tariffs and which didn’t see a reshoring boom. But China was hurt more, both by the tariffs and by the export controls. As industrial policy, Trump’s policies failed; as economic warfare, they showed promising signs of effectiveness.
Smith seems to be saying that while we suffered, Trump’s policies “showed promising signs of effectiveness” because China suffered even more. That’s an incredibly bleak vision.
I find it sad that there are fewer and fewer people willing to defend free trade with China. Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger recently warned that economic nationalism could lead to war with China, but they are in their 90s. I fear that the world of economics is entering a new dark age, similar to the first half of the 20th century. We are forgetting all of the lessons learned so painfully by previous generations. Buffett and Munger are among the few people left who are old enough to recall that dark era.
Smith referred to the bipartisan nature of the new statism. But there are important differences. While both the extreme left and the extreme right are increasingly skeptical of free markets, their views on identity politics differ. Both engage in identity politics, but the left favors women, minorities and gays, while the right favors straight white males. This leads to some strange bedfellows. Here’s Politico, referring to a controversial column in the left wing American Prospect that praised Tucker Carlson:
In fact, for progressives, the debates like the fracas over the Carlson column could, perversely, be seen as a side-effect of good news. Instead of a furious argument over internal dissent against political tactics, it was a furious argument over (alleged) new external support for policy positions.
Even for folks who don’t buy the idea that the market-skeptical bits of Carlson’s schtick were at all genuine, it’s a situation that’s presenting itself more frequently as elements of the GOP move beyond Reaganite positions and instead talk up things like opposition to monopolies, support for living family wages or protectionist treatment of embattled stateside manufacturing.
The challenge is that the rising GOP populists whose views on economic issues might appeal to progressives also often have social views that are way more extreme than the average Chamber of Commerce lifer. Sometimes, in fact, those social views may even be their motivator for their hostility to businesses. Witness the fulminations about “woke capitalism.”
For students of history, this is nothing new. The same dynamic occurred in the 1930s, when both the far left and the far right turned against what is now called “neoliberalism,” or “globalization.” Leftists in America were intrigued by fascists such as Mussolini in much the same way that some progressives are now intrigued by the economic views of people like Tucker Carlson and Josh Hawley. Juan Peron (pictured above) adopted these ideas in the late 1940s, and turned Argentina into a developing country.
The far left and the far right both oppose free markets for the same reason. They have a vision as to which groups should benefits from wealth creation, and they fear that the free market won’t deliver the outcome that they favor.
Noah Smith and Tucker Carlson have almost diametrically opposed views on most political issues. It’s a pretty safe bet that both of these individuals will not get the US industrial policy that they would prefer. When the government starts running the economy, the outcome will depend upon which side is in power. (FWIW, Smith’s vision is easily the lesser of evils.)
History suggests that free markets are the least bad option. They aren’t perfect, but the truly disastrous economic policy mistakes always come from misguided government intervention.
READER COMMENTS
Lizard Man
May 8 2023 at 12:48pm
Smith appears to believe that China will invade Taiwan if it has the opportunity to do so, and is already in the process of restricting trade with the rest of the world in preparation for an invasion and cessation of trade with allies of Taiwan. Smith is a proponent of “friendshoring”, which is the idea that free trade is a good thing so long as it is between countries that don’t plan to go to war against you. Free trade has failed to persuade China’s leadership to stop preparing to invade Taiwan, and it has failed to persuade them to stop trying to take territory claimed by their neighbors. Does the US have any better options than to pursue decoupling of its economy from China if China’s leadership itself is actively pursuing decoupling? Free trade isn’t an option with China because China is quite likely to cease trading with the US in retaliation for the US aiding Taiwan in resisting a PRC invasion. So responsible statesmanship would mean that US leaders have to try to find someway of replacing the Chinese production that the US relies on.
Scott Sumner
May 8 2023 at 6:13pm
“the idea that free trade is a good thing so long as it is between countries that don’t plan to go to war against you.”
I am far more worried about the US attacking China than I am about China attacking the US.
In any case, decoupling makes war more likely, as countries then have less to lose.
Ask the Taiwanese if they plan to decouple from China. And Taiwan does face a legitimate threat of Chinese invasion.
James
May 11 2023 at 11:04am
This reminds me of this study a few years back. From the abstract.
Andrew_FL
May 8 2023 at 2:34pm
As far as I can tell, Smith sees restricted trade with China as a foreign policy, rather than an economic policy.
Warren Platts
May 8 2023 at 4:42pm
The new statism, according to General Secretary Xi Jinping’s address to the 20th Congress:
And it’s our job to help this mind virus spread throughout the world?
Jon Murphy
May 8 2023 at 4:56pm
I mean, I don’t think so. That is why I am a stauch free-market, free-trade liberal. I oppose central planning in all its forms, whether it be direct socialist central planning or indirect socialist “industrial policy”. I reject the idea, promoted by some, that we need to “adopt the weapons of our enemies” (i.e. adopt versions their policies) to “beat” them. We will not beat China by making America more like China. We will just weaken our economy and our dynamic advantages, just as they have weakened theirs.
Scott Sumner
May 8 2023 at 6:15pm
Not sure why it’s in our interest to respond to China’s foolish statist policies with our own foolish statist policies.
Jon Murphy
May 8 2023 at 5:01pm
I agree. That is one of my big fears, but paradoxically, also a source of my optimism. Liberalism does ebb and flow. It has ebbed in the past. I mean, until Mises and Hayek came along, the question was about how to do central planning, not whether or not it was even possible. But then liberalism flowed and the world got extremely wealthier and, ultimately, more peaceful.
I just hope we don;t have to do through another brutal learning period to get there.
Scott Sumner
May 8 2023 at 6:18pm
“I just hope we don’t have to do through another brutal learning period to get there.”
Unfortunately, I don’t see how we avoid doing so. It’s not just the US; nationalism is on the rise in Russia, China, India, etc. Nationalism leads to war.
Jon Murphy
May 8 2023 at 8:17pm
I certainly agree. Especially over the last 3 years, the likelihood of a world war has skyrocketed. But I hope that the fact the world is more interconnected in 23 than it was in 1914 or 1939 could possibly lead people to back away from war.
Scott Sumner
May 9 2023 at 11:56am
The existence of nuclear weapons is also a deterrent to war.
Mactoul
May 8 2023 at 8:18pm
The statement that “the right favors straight white males” is entirely a left view of the right.
The right doesn’t have an hyper-individualist approach that would precisely single out “straight white males” and disfavor straight white females, for example.
Scott Sumner
May 9 2023 at 11:57am
I should clarify that here I’m talking about the extreme right—white nationalists like Tucker Carlson.
TMC
May 9 2023 at 1:22pm
Carlson is not a ‘white’ nationalist. He is a nationalist, but has never favored whites or men over minorities. To some, holding minorities to the same standards as everyone else is racist, but that reeks of bigotry of low expectations.
vince
May 9 2023 at 1:48pm
“the left favors women, minorities and gays”
That sounds like a claim from a white nationalist.
MarkW
May 9 2023 at 8:17am
I share Scott’s pessimism, if not his diagnosis of the ills of the Republicans and Democrats. I think it’s a stretch to say that Rs favor ‘industrial policy’. They clearly favor protectionism on nationalist grounds (and view ‘comparative advantage’ as intellectual bunkum) but I do not (yet) see them wanting to funnel government funds to subsidize favored industries, which seems like an important difference. Similarly, I see them opposing racial/ethnic/gender preferences but do not see them pushing preferences for white males. Again a seemingly important difference. Rs have gone negative on big tech and big corporations generally, but this does not seem to stem from a natural antipathy toward capitalism or big business (as it does with the Ds) but rather than a perception that management has thrown in with their political adversaries.
Which is the lesser of the evils? I don’t know. I really don’t. But I don’t have to decide and I feel better (and less complicit) in not forcing myself to make the call. Neither side is likely to get my (expressive rather than consequential) vote any time in the near future.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 8:25am
It was literally a major part of Trump’s 2016 and 2020 campaigns. Plus the conservative journals are full of people like Cass calling for it.
MarkW
May 9 2023 at 8:44am
It was literally a major part of Trump’s 2016 and 2020 campaigns. Plus the conservative journals are full of people like Cass calling for it.
Which industries? I’m looking for something comparable to Ds push to fund various green energy initiatives (transit, wind, solar, EVs, etc). What industries do the Rs want to subsidize?
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 8:46am
Semiconductors (remember that big plant in Wisconsin Trump championed?). Steel. Aluminum. Washing machines. Pharma. “manufacturing” in general. Just head on over to American Compass and scroll through. Or listen to Trump speeches.
MarkW
May 9 2023 at 9:11am
Well, other than the Foxconn fiasco, we’re talking about protectionism/tariffs rather than direct government spending/subsidies, no? It seems like there’s an ideological difference there — Rs want to ‘protect’ all sectors of economy from foreigners (‘Perfidious Albion’ as Bastiat put it) while Ds want to spend money to develop particular industries. Both are bad. But they do seem bad in different ways.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 9:16am
All of those projects have (or advocate for) direct government subsidies.
But it’s odd to declare subsidies industrial policy but not tariffs or other incentives. What’s the relevant distinction?
MarkW
May 9 2023 at 9:51am
The relevant distinction is that I would use different arguments against Republican economic pathologies than Democratic economic pathologies (even though there’s some overlap). Republicans need to be talked out of protectionism. They need to be convinced that the tariffs they currently favor will ultimately weaken the US industries they’re trying to protect and make them uncompetitive with foreign rivals and — thereby ultimately harming the US’s relative economic standing.
Democrats, on the other hand, need to be talked out of central planning. They need to be convinced that picking specific winners and losers doesn’t work. Subsidies are invariably captured by the well-connected and then the industries fail to flourish. Our electrical vehicle industry, for example, appears headed for disaster once subsidies are removed (and possibly even before then).
By the same token, I would not use the same arguments at all against the Ds ‘woke agenda’ as I would against the Rs culture-war positions. I don’t understand the urge to munge together D and R pathologies as being ‘just the same thing’. That seems to obscure much more than it illuminates.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 12:59pm
Let’s start over, because I think I might be misunderstanding your point.
I understood you to say that the Republicans are not promoting industrial policy.
My point to that is that they are. They have favored and disfavored industries. They want government to influence market outcomes (whether through tariffs, subsidies, or nationalization) to accomplish these goals. That they rely on tariffs and taxes more than subsidies or regulation is irrelevant.
MarkW
May 9 2023 at 1:30pm
My point to that is that they are. They have favored and disfavored industries. They want government to influence market outcomes (whether through tariffs, subsidies, or nationalization) to accomplish these goals. That they rely on tariffs and taxes more than subsidies or regulation is irrelevant.
What I think Trumpian conservatives have to be talked out of is nationalist mercantilism. Their ‘hack’ (both legal and political) is justifying tariffs on certain industries that they see as ‘strategic’ for national security (so aluminum, steel and semiconductors) Progressives, on the other hand, have to be talked out of the idea that free markets tend to run amok unless continuously controlled and guided by the wise hand of government via subsidies and regulations. I don’t think these are irrelevant distinctions. I live in a deep blue college town and have some rural Trumpish cousins and the economic thinking of my neighbors and those relatives really doesn’t seem at all similar.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 3:29pm
I see what your point is now. Thank you
TMC
May 9 2023 at 1:30pm
<p>”Smith seems to be saying that while we suffered, Trump’s policies “showed promising signs of effectiveness” because China suffered even more. That’s an incredibly bleak vision.” </p>
<p> Agree here. I don’t want China to suffer, but moving tade to other partners was beneficial. I’d like to weaken the US’ reliance on China, or any other specific country. China would not hesitate to use trade as a weapon, so limiting their ability to do so is both good foreign policy and good planning in the case of a natural disaster. It’s just building in resiliency into our economy. Unfortunately resiliency has a price, so we suffer the economic inefficiencies tarrifs. </p>
Scott Sumner
May 9 2023 at 8:05pm
I’m not willing to build “resiliency” if it means increasing the risk of war. In any case, I don’t believe that tariffs make our economy more resilient.
A year ago we were told that Europe’s economy was heavily dependent on Russia. That turned out to be mostly wrong.
vince
May 9 2023 at 9:01pm
How much of overstated dependence is true in hindsight, after an unusually warm winter. What if we had an unusually cold winter?
TMC
May 10 2023 at 11:36am
US tariffs have never been enough to induce war. We are still a strong trading partner with China. As for resiliency – it may be my IT background that puts it more into the front of my thoughts, but I’m you do the same to a degree. Keep batteries for your flashlight or have a backup generator as many Californians do? We regularly plan for disruptions in out life.
Germany was very lucky, as Vince said. They have a mild winter when a severe winter was predicted. God protects fools and children.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 8:35pm
Except they’re not. Tariffs make the economy more fragile and free trade makes the economy more resilient. The empirical evidence is quite clear on this point. The pandemic and subsequent years have proved that rather conclusively.
And just logically, how does reducing the number of suppliers increase resiliency?
vince
May 9 2023 at 9:05pm
Who made that claim?
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 9:24pm
TMC did above. All who argue protectionism means resilient economies do. It’s what protectionism means.
TMC
May 10 2023 at 11:41am
I never made the claim, and do not want to cut out China as a supplier. Spreading those whom we buy things from <i> increases </i> the number of trading partners. This is what we have seen happen. Some of the trade with China has moved to Vietnam, back to Mexico, and to several other countries. If China becomes belligerent, then we do not have all of our eggs in one basket, as the saying goes. I don’t understand the logic where it has to be either 100 or 0%.
Jon Murphy
May 11 2023 at 11:43am
Yes. But protectionism reduces the number of trading partners. As you say, the logic isn’t 100% or 0%. Free trade doesn’t argue for any number. Protectionism is necessarily closer to 0%.
Protectionism cannot diversity or make things more resilient because it’s explicitly about not diversifying. Thus my original question: how does reducing the number of suppliers increase resiliency.
Jon Murphy
May 9 2023 at 9:54pm
That’s what protectionism is.
David Boaz
May 11 2023 at 10:10am
Your point about Buffett and Munger reminds me of Hayek saying in the 1970s, “when I was a young man, only the very old men believed in Liberalism. Now that I am an old man, there are all these young people who believe in it.” And maybe those young people had a generation of influence.
But I hope you’re wrong.
Jose Pablo
May 11 2023 at 2:47pm
History suggests that free markets are the least bad option. They aren’t perfect, but the truly disastrous economic policy mistakes always come from misguided government intervention.
This is, indeed, a great statement … and yet in every generation there is a bunch of fools convinced that the only problem with government intervention is that it wasn’t “designed” by them.
ChrisA
May 11 2023 at 5:01pm
Scott, do you think trade agreements are equal to free trade? I am always confused when you say you support free trade but then say you are opposed to Brexit which meant the UK leaving the customs union of the EU. The EU requires free trade within the EU but heavily restricts trade with countries outside the European Union, only permitting it when it is highly regulated by trade agreements. A good example is that the EU has just banned grain imports from Ukraine. (The UK in contrast has said that all Ukrainian imports are duty free). Is it just an empirical stance by you in that you don’t believe the UK having more free trade outside the EU cannot make up for loss of the European markets? Or do you have a principle that being in the EU is “good” and it is nothing to do with trade?