
The Zizians add their story to the list of ignorant scientists. Ted Kaczynski, the so-called Unabomber, a mathematics Ph.D. and Berkeley professor, was cut from the same sort of cloth. These stories would be ludicrous if they had not involved murders of innocent people and wasted lives, including the criminals’ lives, and if they did not suggest deeper knowledge problems. Many of the Zizians had degrees in computer science. They were attracted to the “rationalist movement” and attended the Berkeley-based Center for Applied Rationality, although this group eventually expelled them. (See Zusha Elinson, “A Silicon Valley Intellectual Society Kicked Them Out. Now They’re Tied to a Killing Spree,” Wall Street Journal, February 22, 2025.)
José Ortega, a Spanish philosopher of the first half of the 20th century, believed that the typical scientific man was a “learned ignoramus” and an intellectual barbarian. Like the “mass-man,” the scientist is not interested in understanding the conditions of civilization or even the conditions for the existence of science, nor the closely related necessity of certain liberal institutions. He believes that prosperity “is the spontaneous fruit of an Edenic tree.” (See my Regulation review of Ortega’s 1930 book The Revolt of the Masses.)
Fredrich Hayek explained the problem of “scientism,” which he defined as an improper and naïve application of the methods of the exact sciences to the study of society. It is very tempting, especially for narrowly focused scientific experts with no knowledge of economics, to neglect the varied preferences that motivate individual actions and to ignore the unplanned social order that results. A social order efficient for satisfying individual preferences is impossible to engineer and reconstruct from above. We must be wary of what Hayek, in his Nobel lecture, called “the pretense of knowledge.” (See Hayek’s 1952 book The Counter-Revolution of Science, of which the first part reproduces a series of articles in Economica titled “Scientism and the Study of Society.”)
Scientists, and perhaps especially computer scientists, are subject to a professional bias that may lead them to believe that they have the tools to engineer society according to their own preferences. The Zizians and the Unabomber added murder to the engineer’s toolbox. At any rate, social engineering consists of coercively molding fellow humans’ minds and lives. A basic knowledge of economics, which studies the social consequences of individual actions including exchange, is a good antidote to cultism and social-engineering illusions. (Perhaps it can also be argued that a too-specialized or too-pretentious practice of economics also risks transmogrifying an economist into a social engineer.)
None of what I said is meant to condemn the use of reason. Rationality remains our main tool for understanding the physical and the social world, if one remains conscious of the limits of reason. Someone schooled only in a narrow field of science, without a conscience of the social world around him in time and space, risks becoming an ignoramus, a cultist, a barbarian, or all of that.
PS: Pardon my pun-ish French mind, but the Zizians are certainly not well-versed in the language of Émile Faguet for they would otherwise have found a less childish and patriarchal label for their cult. On French and puns, see the delicious article of Lucy Sante, “French Without Tears.”
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Scientist reengineering society
READER COMMENTS
William Connolley
Feb 24 2025 at 10:17am
Speaking of lists of the ignorant… having a degree in computer science doesn’t make you a scientist. Beware the man with a hammer, to him everything looks like a nail.
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 24 2025 at 12:10pm
William: You are right, but wouldn’t you say that computer science itself is a science, at the frontier of engineering and mathematics (and, at a high level, of neuroscience)? I suspect that for the average Zizian, it has the veneer of science anyway.
William Connolley
Feb 24 2025 at 4:03pm
Computer science is sort of a science, yes, but my point is that just undergraduate level study just doesn’t make you a scientist. Science is a mode of thought; you don’t learn that as an undergrad since you’re just being taught, which is rather different.
Peter
Feb 25 2025 at 12:49pm
In theory yes, in practice no in my experience. You forget credentialism. I tend to find anyone with a science degree (BS) calls themselves a scientist just like Fauci called himself a doctor.
Alan Goldhammer
Feb 24 2025 at 10:33am
One can extrapolate this to the current case of Musk and the Tech Bros he has scouring the US government for waste and fraud. They may be good coders but they also have absolutely no clue about how government runs. They did not even realize the HHS is the payment system that USAID used for their grants as it reduced the duplicity of government payment systems. They alleged that USAID was “secretly” paying out funds in opposition to the Trump ban. Turns out that was not the case at all. Matt Bai has a good explanation for this.
steve
Feb 24 2025 at 11:39am
Excellent article. There have always been scientists who are ignorant about issues about areas outside of their expertise but assume that because they are smart they know better than other people what is best in those outside areas. Heaven knows doctors were guilty of this for a long time. Having a lot of engineers in the family its still rampant among that group. However, what this article documents is arrogance and callous disregard for others.
I have certainly noticed, as have others, that many people in the IT world regard their expertise as more important than that of everyone else. Taker a couple of young people in their earl;y 20s who have grown up in the culture and being very smart, they were among the best in their world. However, they have no wisdom, humility or basic regard for other human beings. They just arent going to listen to other people. Why should they when they are always the smartest in the room?
Steve
Alan Goldhammer
Feb 24 2025 at 1:35pm
It is not so much the ignorance that I mind but the total lack of empathy for the people that they are terminating. I remember the day that I was called into the SVP office and told that my department was heading in a different direction and I was going to be taking early retirement (I was hoping to work another 2-3 years as I enjoyed the job). At least I was treated as a human being and not just a blip in a database.
Thomas L Hutcheson
Feb 24 2025 at 6:29pm
Although cruel, one could have some admiration for ruthless cost-benefit maximization. But this is cruelty for the sake of what?
[Sorry about the SVP decision. I was in that position. Fortunately I continued working gigs for another 15 years including the very most intellectually challenging job I ever landed.]
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 25 2025 at 10:52am
Thomas: Aren’t you confusing profit and loss calculations in a private organization or for a single individual on the one hand and, on the other hand, coercively hurting some society members in order to favor others (“social benefits are higher than social costs”)?
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 24 2025 at 12:06pm
Alan: Indeed, they look like non-violent Zizians.
MarkW
Feb 25 2025 at 6:40am
I would say this in defense of Musk. First, his track record of learning how to do complicated things (and building organizations that can learn how to do complicated things) is really unrivaled. Tesla is the only EV profitable EV company, and it started from the ground up and built out its own charging network. Yes, a big chunk of the money came from EV tax credits, but those same credits have been available to other startups and to legacy automakers (who had a huge head start on all aspects of auto manufacturing other than batteries and electric motors) and yet no other startups are even close to profitable and the legacy automakers still lose billions each on the EV business units. SpaceX likewise started from ground zero and effectively took over the global launch business by being vastly cheaper and more reliable than all foreign and domestic competitors with decades of experience. At Twitter, Musk supposedly reduced the head count by 80%. Now, yes, Twitter/X has business problems, but they are of a political rather than technical or organizational nature — the site itself works fine with the vast reduced workforce. So Musk does have a track record of jumping into highly complex industries and not just surviving but of disrupting those industries to a point where, after a few years, previously stalwart incumbents struggle to compete.
No, Musk and his ‘nerd army’ may not have a good sense of how the US government as a whole works, but as far as I can tell, nobody else does either. The labyrinthian level of complexity actually seems to the big problem to solve (or at least a big obstacle to clear first). In Seeing Like A State, the late James Scott talked about governments trying to force homogenization and simplification in order to make things legible and tractable for bureaucrats. It seems that DOGE is trying something else entirely — using modern AI to ingest and analyze in a way that would be impossible for humans. Congress, for example, has a history of passing bills as large as phone books after a brief bit of ‘debate’ — bills that nobody fully reads because nobody possibly could. But AI tools have no trouble getting through all the material in a very short time.
And yes, DOGE has made mistakes and will make more. But that’s by design. What “move fast and break things” really means is “move fast, make mistakes fast, and fix them fast”. Less than two years ago, on its first launch, the SpaceX ‘Super Heavy’ blew apart its own concrete launch pad with the force of a volcanic eruption. But months later, that problem was solved, and at this point, launch #8 may take off this Friday — about six weeks after the previous launch.
I don’t know that Musk is going to have success in reforming US bureaucracy — doing that may end up being harder than rocket science (or different enough that the methods just won’t work). Also, the discretionary spending DOGE is targeting makes up only a quarter of the total budget. If we got rid of discretionary spending entirely that would only just about balance the budget. So there are strict limits to what can possibly be achieved with DOGE. Even so, I think it’s a mistake to assume that Musk has no idea what he’s up against or that DOGE will not have the capacity to learn and adapt quickly.
steve
Feb 25 2025 at 11:01am
Glad you pointed out the tax credits that helped Musk survive his start up. We should also note that there were both federal and state level tax credits that were important in the early stages. EV companies, actually many companies, have large earl capital costs and it takes a while for the earnings to turn positive. Someone called it surviving the death valley. Musk had the benefit of being first on a large scale so he got lots of help. However, Musk and Trump have said they will eliminate those credits and states are doing away with those subsidies. Mush supposedly said that was good because he didnt need them anymore. A cynical person might think he wanted to make sure they were eliminated to make things difficult for his competition.
SpaceX has been very dependent upon govt funding and still is. Govt officials who have disagreed with some SpaceX activities have been eliminated.
Still, I would agree that Musk has been brilliant at what he has done. However, to date part of that success has been his ability to hire and retain people with the skills apporpriate to the endeavor. He hired great engineers and managers for Tesla. Great engineers, a lot from NASA, for SpaceX. For DOGE he is using people who dont have skills appropriate to what he is trying to fix. Anyway, I think there is a huge difference between a bunch of tech bros moving fast and breaking, then fixing tech vs tech bros outside their field.
Steve
MarkW
Feb 25 2025 at 12:59pm
For DOGE he is using people who dont have skills appropriate to what he is trying to fix.
I would suggest that there really were no people who already possessed the appropriate skills for what DOGE is trying to accomplish. If it’s going to be done at all (and it may well fail), it’s going to have to be through an iterative, learning-by-doing process.
steve
Feb 25 2025 at 1:31pm
I will agree to disagree with you on this. I think there are lots of people with management and accounting skills that would be appropriate. I think that as was originally suggested, bringing in people with 20-30 years of experience and leadership in business or maybe especially people with experience in both business and government, of which there are many. I think 23 year old coders and programmers would obviously lack many of the needed skills/knowledge and would likely have none of the wisdom or common sense most people gain through experience.
Steve
MarkW
Feb 25 2025 at 3:13pm
I think there are lots of people with management and accounting skills that would be appropriate. I think that as was originally suggested, bringing in people with 20-30 years of experience and leadership in business or maybe especially people with experience in both business and government
To be honest, to me that sounds like more of the same on steroids or like the ‘blue ribbon committee’ that never accomplishes anything (and usually by design).
steve
Feb 25 2025 at 3:52pm
If you use them the same way they have always been used, then yes. In the past the blue ribbon committees made recommendations, then Congress ignored them. Now put those people into a situation where they have the same abilities as DOGE. While its still not clear that what DOGE is doing is legal, lets assume it is. Then those blue ribbon people dont need Congress to implement. Imagine you have a team with a couple of Musk’s 23 y/o IT nerds but also in the team is a 50 y/o accountant with govt and business experience and a 55 y/o entrepreneur who has founded and run a couple of companies and a VC guy who has made a living taking over failing companies and turning them around. They will have the smarts to know to whom they should listen and will be much less likely to do stupid stuff having seen the mistakes of others and lived through their own.
Steve
MarkW
Feb 26 2025 at 3:03pm
While its still not clear that what DOGE is doing is legal, lets assume it is. Then those blue ribbon people dont need Congress to implement.
I’m pretty sure that Congressional approval will be needed for much of what DOGE is apparently trying to do. It seems that DOGE has started with those things it believes it legally can do first and is trying to generate the public support and political momentum it will need to go farther. But to a large extent, DOGE can’t actually DO anything on its own — all it can do is make recommendations for Trump and the rest of the executive branch. Would a group of level headed 50 year old accountants have been more effective in generating buzz and momentum during this first month? I have my doubts.
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 26 2025 at 5:46pm
MarkW and Steve: In this interesting exchange, Steve appears to me to be closer to the immediate problem: You don’t let twenty-something (or fifty-something, for that matter) scientists or so-called scientists try to re-engineer society as they think it should be. Isn’t this what the DOGE team ultimately wants? However, I would suggest that Steve tends to overestimate the role of managers and to underestimate the necessary knowledge, in the task we are discussing, of the social consequences of individual actions (including theirs, in this case). To quote Adam Smith:
Of course, due consideration must be given to the fact that the state they are attacking is not exactly a model for the great society! The Ancient Régime in France was not such a model either, but the 1789 evolution made it worse for at least several decades.
Craig
Feb 24 2025 at 12:37pm
There is now also politicized science. Part of that is how grants are issued. There is a ‘Science Industrial Complex’ of sorts.
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 24 2025 at 3:22pm
Craig: Yes. The wider the state, the more politicization (by definition).
Peter
Feb 24 2025 at 1:18pm
FYI I’d suggest hyperlinking the first usage of “Zizians” in your post like you did for the Unabomber. I for one had never heard of them and I’m probably not unique in that.
Alan Goldhammer
Feb 24 2025 at 1:32pm
I read the original story that came from San Francisco and then started to really get concerned when I saw several of them were captured no more than 70 miles from where we live. I lived through the terror of the Manson Family and the DMV Sniper attacks; last thing I want to worry about is a loony vegan offshoot called Zizians. Thing are too weird the way they are today that I don’t want to exist in a Pynchonian universe.
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 24 2025 at 2:23pm
Peter: I thought that the link at the end of the paragraph to the WSJ report about them would be sufficient. Don’t you think it is?
Craig
Feb 24 2025 at 2:49pm
IMHO different anchor text so I’d suggest a second link would be helpful here….
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 24 2025 at 3:26pm
Craig and Peter: Done.
Richard W Fulmer
Feb 24 2025 at 2:09pm
Perhaps it’s easier for computer jockeys to become detached from reality since they can create virtual worlds. As CGI and AI make it increasingly easy to generate realistic images, the meme “reality is a social construct” gains traction – prompting “Ziz” LaSota to joke about “repealing the first law of thermodynamics.”
Peter
Feb 24 2025 at 4:50pm
The thing is I don’t think they are becoming detached, I think the problem is the legal system is based on local community norms and jurisdiction and these girls are becoming citizens of another locality in all but physicality which leads to a mismatch of values like gates communes of yor. Ziziabs, Ted, etc are bad examples as they effectively declared war on their neighboring locality but I’d suggest at some point virtual crimes need to quit being prosecuted locally if both parties are virtual as it should be outside their jurisdiction.
Basically the legal system hasn’t caught up with telephones yet, much less the Internet and that community norm thing is a problem as we all become remote citizens.
Thomas L Hutcheson
Feb 24 2025 at 6:19pm
No (except economics, of course :)) are “interested in understanding the conditions of civilization or even the conditions for the existence of science, nor the closely related necessity of certain liberal institutions.”
But as a matter of fact STEM volk are a lot less left wing than other groups, the reverse of things from Ortega and CP Snow’s day.
Pierre Lemieux
Feb 25 2025 at 10:48am
Thomas: The meaningful distinction is not left-right (where, incidentally, today’s right is yesterday’s left) but between collective and political choices on the one hand and, on the other hand, individual and private choices.
Mactoul
Feb 24 2025 at 11:39pm
Perhaps this failing is found more among the economists, great number of those are involved in planning for the entire countries of millions or billions, always looking with bird’s eye view upon the aggregates of this and that.
Indeed, as a profession, the economists are adjunct to the administrative state and Five Year plans, and the growth of the profession of economists is entirely due to what you decry.
For, I don’t know if any entrepreneur has any need for the economists.
Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan
Feb 26 2025 at 5:54am
Pierre was writing about people who are genuinely scientific in some field, but unscientific in another, not about quacks even in their own disciplines.
Someone who genuinely excels in some science can be far more dangerous when that excellence is mistaken as more general.
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