Matt Yglesias directed me to an interesting NBER study by abstract:
Here is theOne of the central predictions of the life cycle hypothesis is that individuals smooth consumption over their economic life cycle; thus, they save when income is high, in order to provide for when income is likely to be low, such as after retirement. We test this prediction in a group of people—players in the National Football League (NFL)—whose income profile does not just gradually rise then fall, as it does for most workers, but rather has a very large spike lasting only a few years. We collected data on all players drafted by NFL teams from 1996 to 2003. Given the difficulty of directly measuring consumption of NFL players, we test whether they have adequate savings by counting how many retired NFL players file for bankruptcy. Contrary to the life-cycle model predictions, we find that initial bankruptcy filings begin very soon after retirement and continue at a substantial rate through at least the first 12 years of retirement. Moreover, bankruptcy rates are not affected by a player’s total earnings or career length. Having played for a long time and been well-paid does not provide much protection against the risk of going bankrupt.
I suspect that poverty has multiple causes, including bad circumstances and bad decision-making. But if this study is correct, it suggests that poverty in the US is heavily influenced by bad decision-making. After all, if circumstances played an important role, then you’d expect at least some correlation between pre-existing wealth and likelihood of becoming bankrupt.
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that decision-making explains all forms of poverty. I suspect that people born on small farms in low-income countries are more likely to become poor as adults than people with equal decision-making skills that are born into wealthy families in the same countries. But I also suspect that as countries become richer, a greater share of poverty is due to poor decision-making and a smaller share is due to circumstances. At the level of wealth associated with professional football players, poverty is almost entirely due to poor decision-making.
If this is true, then a field experiment in Africa on a public policy such as Universal Basic Income may have little or no relevance for the situation in the United States.
PS. Whenever I post on these sorts of topics, people tend to misconstrue my claims. Thus I am not saying that the poverty of former football players is some sort of moral failure. Perhaps frequent concussions make people less likely to make wise decisions. If so, their poverty would be caused by poor decision-making, even as the poor decision-making had external causes. People who moralize sociological issues generally end up with very shallow views of the situation. At the deepest level of analysis, 100% of what happens in the world is due to circumstances. I separate causation and decision-making to make it easier to evaluate the public policy implications of a problem. That is, we need to think about what factors must public policy take as a “given”?
READER COMMENTS
Peter
Jan 7 2024 at 1:49pm
Possibly though I tend to view this more as a byproduct of risk aversion, i.e. risk adverse people tend to be wealthier hence less prone to make “bad” decisions which really just means the dice came up against you and you either bet the farm once or you regularly take bad odds. Play the odds if you generally want a stable mundane mediocre life and many people do but that’s also a trap as it leads to stagnation on every level. And you don’t become an NFL player in that case nor President.
Jim Glass
Jan 7 2024 at 5:16pm
Lottery winners also have an elevated bankruptcy rate, after adjusting for other factors.
While I certainly agree that’s the fact, as to the value of this study one must note that NFL players are about as far away from a representative sample of the general population as one can get. Need I list the ways? “Recruited”, coddled celebrities since their teens with huge amounts of money, perks, and hangers-on thrown at them … they have much less experience with life (and money) management than even the minimum wage worker picking up beers and smokes who decides to get a lottery ticket too.
I once heard Boomer Esiason tell horror stories about his former teammates, including one who was a top draft pick with corresponding $$$ contract who had graduated from college illiterate. He couldn’t read or understand papers he signed, and was ruined in short order by multiple paternity suits, failed investments and suing creditors, to the point where he fled the country as soon as his short career ended. I hope this study has case examples like this to supplement the data.
Did this former teammate make poor decisions? He sure did! Yet “society” put him in a situation where he was incapable of doing anything else. The responsibility falls upon … exactly whom?
David Seltzer
Jan 7 2024 at 6:25pm
Jim, interesting point. How did “society” put him in that situation? Which individuals put him in that situation?
Jim Glass
Jan 7 2024 at 6:42pm
That’s what I asked: “The responsibility falls upon … exactly whom?”
Give us your opinion.
David Seltzer
Jan 7 2024 at 6:54pm
I have none due to the “insuperable” limits of my knowledge.
Scott Sumner
Jan 8 2024 at 1:01pm
“While I certainly agree that’s the fact, as to the value of this study one must note that NFL players are about as far away from a representative sample of the general population as one can get.”
I suspect their decision-making ability is actually fairly average. It would be interesting to compare them with lottery winners.
Jim Glass
Jan 8 2024 at 8:55pm
‘It would be interesting to compare [NFL players] with lottery winners.”
Well, they are all lottery players with much the same backgrounds. The odds of winning the big payoff — making the NFL — are comparable with winning a million dollar lottery prize … players in both lotteries come from lower SES backgrounds, 56% of NFL players are black, 70% of NBA players are … they all choose to go for the tiny-chance big payoff rather than the much higher expected return.
It’s always been thus. The lower economic classes have provided the bulk of professional athletes in every era. Those with middle-level to higher income and education have always gone mostly for higher expected returns. No doubt you’ve heard of “The Big Book of Famous Jewish Athletes”.
“I suspect their decision-making ability is actually fairly average.”
I don’t know why you’d assume that when they are so different from the average population in so many ways: SES status, racial composition, risk evaluation, pattern-of-income as far from average as one can get, and bankruptcy rate of course. Plus the unique personal treatment and incentives they face from middle school on. James Brooks ain’t the only player to come out of Auburn, or Warner Robins High School, or the SEC, or the other big-$$$ programs and all their feeder JCs and high schools…
Personally, I’d take the 1,700 highest-paid actors in Hollywood as being better representative of the average population than the 1,700 highest-paid football players in the country.
Scott Sumner
Jan 8 2024 at 10:33pm
Well that means 44% of NFL players are not black, and I’d add that most black Americans are not poor.
Jim Glass
Jan 8 2024 at 11:54pm
Well, if you want to play this bizarre game, the Census puts black median household income at 35% below that of white household income. So if you are claiming the SES status of black NFL players is “average”, ergo no behavioral difference for them or players as a whole, you must be claiming the richest blacks go into the NFL lottery, which would be truly bizarre.
Let’s get back to reality. We’re dealing with 20-year-olds, over-hormoned and hyper-competitive, who have giga-dollars suddenly dumped on them, most with zero experience or education (or interest) in handling money, but a lot of interest in having a good time, many of whom blow through the money on bling, toys, hot women, social life and “investment advisors” who loot them.
The NBER people take this *tiny subset* of the population, *utterly unrepresentative* of the general population, and use it to “test” (their word) “the life cycle hypothesis that individuals smooth consumption” in the general population of hundreds of millions of people!
Really????? Where is John Ioannidis when we need him?
Jim Glass
Jan 9 2024 at 2:10am
An example from personal experience: I have a good friend since high school who worked for the Mets for 20+ years, starting as a ball boy (stories!) up into management. He married and had kids young, and regularly took his sons out to the stadium to mix with the players from their very early years. If you ever doubt the value of first-class teaching/coaching, meet a couple of kids who were taught at age 7 how to throw a ball by a MLB pitching coach. “Hey kid, no, like this.” Wow, like lasers. It was scary. If the public schools ever learned the teaching methods of pro sports teams … but I digress.
One son went to college at Johns Hopkins (dad paying full freight) hit like .600 leading the team to a national ranking, and was drafted in a middle round by the Orioles. But minor league players get paid a miserable pittance. So Dad and Son had a conversation…
Dad: “I’m proud of you!” Son: “Thanks! So you’ll support me when I’m in the minors?” Dad: “Not a chance, not a penny.” “Aw, Dad…” “Look, you know what’s going to happen. In Rookie League they’ll love you because you have great fundamentals, are smart and have character. But if you make it to AA you’ll just be a slow white kid. You’ll be competing against guys from across Latin America and the whole world who are cut-throating their way just to survive. You’ll be the guy being carried by his Daddy. Who’s going to win that competition?” “Aw, Dad…” “Go to the minors, I’ll root for you! But you’ll compete with the rest head-to-head, even terms, riding the same bus. Do you want that?” “Aw, no, not really…”
Son went into finance instead and did great, can near buy his own minor league team now. Who’s more likely to have financial problems? The Johns Hopkins finance guy, or the kid with a high school education (maybe) who cut throats his way through the minors to “the show”. I dunno.
Jim Glass
Jan 8 2024 at 5:11pm
BTW, while Boomer didn’t name his Super Bowl teammate, it appears to have been first-round pick James Brooks…
OK, so did Brooks just make bad decisions? Or was he set up to make bad decisions? People respond to incentives, and clearly Brooks responded to the incentives heaped upon him since at least 8th grade (the story covers his time in the high school that also didn’t teach him to read.)
Who was responsible for the bad decisions?
Floccina
Jan 9 2024 at 3:47pm
Maybe for football players there should be a major called “home economics” that really teaches how a person should save, spend, budget, cook, use name recognition to get a sales job, not get taken by scammers, etc. Home economics someone like Scott could probably teach that. My wife could, but she’s too frugal.
john hare
Jan 7 2024 at 6:32pm
I am not in poverty even after going broke three time in my life. But I can say that I would be massively further ahead except for several mistakes I made.
Sam Sullwick
Jan 7 2024 at 6:44pm
Poverty does not have causes. Prosperity has causes, and poverty is a lack of prosperity.
john hare
Jan 8 2024 at 4:30am
Losing everything in a divorce is a cause.
MarkW
Jan 8 2024 at 6:03am
If this is true, then a field experiment in Africa on a public policy such as Universal Basic Income may have little or no relevance for the situation in the United States.
I agree, but I’m not sure how relevant the experience of pro-football players is either. Even big-prize lottery winners are maybe not the best. How about looking at poor people who win much more modest sums in lotteries (say a few tens of thousands) or who inherit similar sums from ‘rich uncles’ — how do they fare? Do they income-smooth or invest the money productively? Or do they quickly spend the windfall and end up back where they came from? I’m afraid I suspect it’s mostly the latter.
I would never be able to find it again, but I remember reading a justification for the windfall approach. The idea is that, with the sudden influx, you have an opportunity to live for a brief (but enjoyable and hopefully memorable) period as a non-poor person. You can take that ‘dream vacation’ or drive that newer reliable car or splurge out on the town. But if you income-smooth, then over a long period of time, you’re so little better off that it’s hardly noticeable. And as for productive investing–you don’t know how to do that (which is why you’re poor in the first place).
Phil H
Jan 8 2024 at 9:26am
There’s a few problems with this argument, I think. Firstly, the paper sounds weird: bankruptcy is an odd way to measure poverty. I get what they’re doing, but seeing as bankruptcy is a technical measure that might be unrelated to how much wealth you have, it doesn’t seem like a brilliant indicator to use.
But the bigger point is that, yes, of course you’re right that individual decisions have an impact on where you end up on the ladder; BUT the shape of the ladder is what excites the ire of the Proud Brotherhood of Lefties. I don’t see that this paper addresses that question at all. If in fact the ladder includes a large trap at the bottom which is very unpleasant to live in and from which escape is very difficult, then the fact that there is some mobility within the trap and on other parts of the ladder will not solve the social conflict. (And to the extent that this paper shows anything, doesn’t it suggest that that’s still true? A significant number of people who start poor(?) fail to escape the poverty trap even when you give them millions of dollars?)
In terms of the public policy implications, I agree that public policy should take into account the fact that people will make bad decisions. It must take into account that whatever system public policy shapes, some people will be winners in that system, and some will be losers. Money should not be spent on pulling people up a waterchute that is designed to wash them down. Instead, it could be spent on levelling out the waterchute a bit.
Jon Murphy
Jan 8 2024 at 9:37am
To be clear, the study authors are not claiming bankruptcy as a proxy for poverty. They are testing the life cycle model. Scott is extrapolating their findings to a broader discussion of poverty.
To your point about inequality, I’d say the findings here temper some of the Left’s claims. Poverty doesnt appear to be a trap, unless policy makes it so. Decision-making seems to play an important role, moreso than existing conditions.
gwern
Jan 8 2024 at 1:07pm
I assume they’re measuring bankruptcy because, not being a Scandinavian country or in cahoots with the IRS like Raj Chetty, there is no reasonable way for them to measure football player wealth in any systematic, accurate, unbiased way. (You would expect, for example, selective attrition from media reports of their wealth/career: those who do badly will quietly disappear from media coverage. So you couldn’t just spend a lot of time reading every article about each player and trying to guess wealth.) Bankruptcies, however, are matters of public record and are a relatively objective measure of financial distress/failure.
What I wonder about is less the usefulness of bankruptcy as other factors like traumatic brain injury, which affects so many people in the NFL. Earning money in the NFL is far from exogenous, like a lottery win, because you are trading away a *lot* of your physical, and especially mental health, every year for the money. Whereas with other pro sports like baseball, they may be hard on your body, but much less so on the old noggin.
Nor do controls like ‘length of career’ seem like they would deal with this, because TBI and other health issues are reasons that your career is ended (often involuntarily), so financial distress might be constant. (Imagine scenarios like you get hit real hard in the head in your first year, are fired the next, and go bankrupt the next; versus you manage to avoid any bad hits for 5 years, and *then* you retire and start making bad decisions; there would be no ‘effect of time’ there, but if you concluded ‘it has nothing to do with TBI because look, the risk doesn’t go up despite cumulative time’.)
Jon Murphy
Jan 8 2024 at 9:40am
I suspect there is some connection between decision-making and circumstances. Just anecdotally, I have taught in some very poor places. One thing I see from a subset of students is a poverty-defeatist attitude. Basically, “I am poor, always will be poor, why should I study?” These students often make a choice to not work and get out of poverty.
MarkW
Jan 8 2024 at 10:10am
These students often make a choice to not work and get out of poverty.
Yes, but to study and get out of poverty would mean leaving the place they grew up and their families and friends behind (at least to an extent) and living lives, doing work, and socializing with people whose ways they do not know and are likely to feel somewhat foreign. This is not impossible, and some people obviously do it, but it is daunting. My own kids, on the other hand, simply had to follow the same kinds of familiar paths as did their family and friends. No break with what they grew up with was required.
I don’t know that there’s anything that can be done about this — escaping poverty nearly always means escaping a familiar culture of poverty — but it’s easy to see why some kids make the decision to stick with what they’ve always known.
Jon Murphy
Jan 8 2024 at 11:56am
Not necessarily. Lots of good jobs around the areas.
Mark Z
Jan 8 2024 at 1:11pm
Most of the middle/upper class people I know moved away for college or after college, some even to other countries. So I don’t think it’s that people want to stay in the same milieu they grew up in. Rather, kids from wealthier families are for some reason more willing to move far away for an opportunity – or are even expected to do so. There seems to be a big difference between lower and upper class willingness to move far away from home.
MarkW
Jan 8 2024 at 1:41pm
There seems to be a big difference between lower and upper class willingness to move far away from home.
Well, yes — for my kids, staying close to home and thus close to all their school friends wasn’t an option, since virtually all of their friends went away for school and are now living all over the country (or even the world).
Jim Glass
Jan 8 2024 at 11:04pm
In the 1990s the Caribbean blacks who had immigrated to NYC were at the very top of the income distribution here — equal to the Asians, ahead of the whites. (There are 200+ languages spoken in NYC and the income distribution by ethnicity can be very interesting.) They were huge in the grocery business, seemed to own half the groceries in the outer boroughs. They had very strong family structure, worked long hours in their family businesses and their families supported each other — very much like the Chinese immigrants did with much more public notoriety.
The Caribbean blacks also spit out the most viscous racism I’ve ever heard in my life — against the native American “welfare blacks.” This was back during the big political fights over welfare reform, filled with stories about welfare queens driving their Caddies to pick up their checks. (Many here probably are too young to remember.) The Caribs hated being associated with that, hated the excuses they heard from the natives justifying welfare and unemployment, like being the victims of slavery — whose ancestors had been the victims of the worst slavery?? I knew people on both sides, and it could be kind of shocking.
Point is, these were people who really moved and “left home” to make better lives for themselves. (At least they spoke English, the Vietnamese and Chinese then arriving here and doing the same thing, didn’t.) They were going hard against people who didn’t want to move from their neighborhoods or change their ways even locally to improve their lives.
So is it really so hard “to leave the place [you] grew up and their families and friends behind (at least to an extent)” to get out of poverty? I guess it depends on your culture, your family relations, what you’ve been taught, and your personality – what you really want to get out of life. After all, it’s hard to stay in poverty too.
MarkW
Jan 9 2024 at 7:32am
So is it really so hard “to leave the place [you] grew up and their families and friends behind (at least to an extent)” to get out of poverty?
It’s definitely easier if there’s an immigrant enclave you can join (such as you’ve described). In that case, you can move across the world and still stay in your cultural comfort zone (and maybe even maintain some of your friend & family connections). My own 19-century German immigrant ancestors didn’t move to random places in the US, but to a city with an existing large German immigrant population.
Dylan
Jan 9 2024 at 11:13am
There’s obviously selection bias going on here as well. The ones that do decide to make the move are going to be different than the ones that stayed home, higher tolerance for risk being just one difference.
Jose Pablo
Jan 9 2024 at 5:10pm
So is it really so hard “to leave the place [you] grew up and their families and friends behind (at least to an extent)” to get out of poverty?
It is extremely hard* if you are not allowed to legally enter the country you want to move to.
If that is the case the people not letting you enter that particular country are the ones to blame for your poverty.
* hard to the point that around 6,000 thousand people die every year crossing borders trying to do precisely so (getting out of poverty).
Knut P. Heen
Jan 8 2024 at 12:25pm
George Best, the former Manchester United star, said that he spent 90 percent of his money on women, booze, and cars. The rest he wasted he said. Interesting preferences, but not irrational.
By the way, in Norway, the withholding-tax on your income is zero in June and 50 percent of normal in December. Why? The claim is that some people are not able to save for the summer vacation and Christmas, thus the state saves for you. That argument sounds great until you realize that anyone may borrow money until the June and December incomes arrive. Obviously, the lenders also understand the system.
Jim Glass
Jan 8 2024 at 8:01pm
“Let’s play: Where’d Your Money Go?“
🙂
AMW
Jan 8 2024 at 12:57pm
I bet bankruptcy rates are affected by a player’s general intelligence, though. Life is an IQ test. Presumably the authors could control for this because NFL players typically take a Wonderlic cognitive ability test at the start of their career.
Scott Sumner
Jan 8 2024 at 10:30pm
Why bother testing when you already know the answer?
Jim Glass
Jan 9 2024 at 12:45am
Fair point. And as we already long knew …
… via MSNBC (and Sports Illustrated, and the NFLPA, etc.), what’s the point of this paper existing?
It can’t be that “pro athletes don’t smooth the consumption of their contract income over their life cycle”, because we all already knew that from MSNBC et. al,, and 20 NBA Players Who Went Broke And Lost Millions Of Dollars, etc, etc. for the other pro sports. (Look at those numbers! Antione Walker, wow!) I mean, Duh.
Is it that the life cycle hypothesis as to hundreds of millions of normal people is suddenly questioned by this tiny subset of extremists? As the abstract suggests? I hardly think so. (If so, why wasn’t it questioned long ago by other researchers using the same obvious data?)
Is it that dumbass, over-hormoned 20-year-olds who have giga-dollars dumped on them should have it done through league-required trust arrangements that will spread the funds over the course of their lives? So they can’t blow through their money like the ignorant dumbass kids they are? Maybe, but that’s hardly a new idea, and the abstract doesn’t mention it.
So seriously, what’s the point of this paper?
Jim Glass
Jan 9 2024 at 2:31am
The average salary in the NBA is approaching $10 million, in MLB is near $5 million, and in the NFL is $2.8 million. Also look at the leagues’ relative risks of serious injury.
Any athlete with the ability to play a pro sport and who targets the NFL as a career over the others should fail the cognitive ability test by default, no Wonderlic needed.
AMT
Jan 9 2024 at 2:14pm
Don’t you think it is almost entirely to do with the specific physical abilities people have? It seems exceptionally rare to find anyone who is capable of playing in multiple different pro sports. I’m not confused why the 5’9 defensive back chose football rather than basketball. Baseball seems to allow for a wider variety of body types, but typically you have to be able to throw and/or hit very well. But, maybe your implication is true and nba players are more intelligent than nfl players…
Jose Pablo
Jan 8 2024 at 8:49pm
That reminds me of an interesting book that was never written (or hasn’t been written so far): Caplan’s “Poverty, Who’s to Blame”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAaCpyuwRIw
From, for instance, this 2019 Hayek lecture, you could guess that Caplan’s position on this topic seems to be (or seemed to be in 2019):
* NFL bankrupt ex-players “poverty” is a joke compared to the “real” poverty of the one billion people in the world, living with less than $1.25 a day
* For most of these 1 billion people “circumstances” (namely the “socialist” policies of third world governments and the anti-immigration policies of first world governments) are to blame.
* For most of the remaining people in poverty bad decision making is to blame (bad luck, so “circumstances” also, accounts for a small, but existing, part).
* In particular in developed countries (like the US), not finishing high school, not having a full-time job and having children out of wedlock are the bad decission-making causing poverty. In developing countries, bad spending habits (spending too much money on alcohol, tobacco and prostitutes) is the culprit causing poverty.
It would be interesting to know the role that these causes (both first world and developing countries ones) play in the ex-NFL players poverty cases. I wouldn’t be surprised if not having a- full time job, ex-marital affairs and bad spending habits (so bad decisions) were not the main cause involved.
I wouldn’t take for granted the financial savvy required for the “life cycle hypothesis” to work. It is far from simple to live today and tomorrow from the income obtained from a job of the past (or from a lottery ticket). The government seems to agree, otherwise it wouldn’t be that insultingly paternalistic when it comes to pensions.
David Seltzer
Jan 9 2024 at 1:31pm
Jose, excellent summary. To split this societal atom, a trained statistician/economist would look for correlation if not causation with some sort of dynamic multiple regression.
Y = B0 + B1x1 + B2x2 + B3x3 +…+Bnxn +e.
Where: x1 are non-marital births, x2 are regulations, x3 education, x4 price controls x5 transfer payments to able bodied workers. I’m sure commentors could expand this to one hundred explanatory variables. The questions attendant to a study like this are reverse causality and multi-collinearity. The larger problem, as I see it, is the random error term. As n approaches infinity, E(e) = 0. But sometimes there is a cuachy event that blows things up.
Jose Pablo
Jan 9 2024 at 3:43pm
David, I believe that this is, basically, the approach that Haskins and Sawhill follow in Creating an Opportunity Society.
The other interesting question is when Bryan is going to publish this book …
Jim Glass
Jan 9 2024 at 1:04am
I bet bankruptcy rates are affected by a player’s general intelligence, though. Life is an IQ test.
It’s much more an education test. Money management is a learned skill. The late, great, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, leader of the last major reforms of Social Security and the welfare system (back in the days when bitter political wars were fought over meaningful subjects, rather than pronouns and if men = women) was once asked: Why is Social Security such a success, and welfare such a failure, when they are both cash transfers?
His answer was: Social Security benefits are paid only after decades in the work force, which requires beneficiaries to learn to be law-abiding, responsible in their affairs, and capable of managing their money, Welfare is paid to support young people who don’t work, in lieu of work, which frees them from learning all the above. People respond to incentives!
This surprises anyone? Look at the case of 1st-round pick James Brooks, noted above — it’s what Moynihan said about the welfare case multiplied x 1,000! It boggles my mind that academic paper-publishing economists don’t have the eyes to see this, or the education to understand what Moynihan and the political-economists covering this subject in practice were saying a generation ago. Maybe academic economists should be a little less insularly academic?
Here’s a serious question: Where is the phenomenon of life-cycle financial saving supposed to come from? What is its origin? It’s certainly not in our DNA. During the eons of our evolution there were neither financial savings nor 6-to-8 decades of lifespan to spread them over. (And there still aren’t in many parts of the world.) “Saving” was the food you set aside to get to the next successful hunt, or some such. So … is life cycle saving visited upon us by the Holy Ghost? Nah, even my Jesuit education never claimed that.
It is the behavior of a large population of people with modest-to-moderate generally steady earnings, learned over years from elders and via eyesight and common sense, following the incentive to be able to enjoy financial well-being instead of poverty in one’s later years.
OK, now take (1) a sample group of the general population described above, and compare its savings behavior to that of (2) a tiny group of over-hormoned, hyper-competitive 20-year-old egoists who receive sudden, massive, temporary giga-income, and who, James Brooks-like, are in large part never taught to save (or even read!!), and in fact face major incentives to squander their income. (Methodological individualism!). Then note that the behavior of the two groups differs!
As meaningful insights go, this observation gives me my “Duh!” moment of the month. Really, is there anything to be learned from it?
Jose Pablo
Jan 9 2024 at 5:22pm
Why is Social Security such a success
What does it mean that Social Security is a success?
Social Security is a Ponzi scheme.
A Ponzi scheme is “successful” for the people that manage to get a decent/great return from the Ponzi scheme managers, using the contributions of the new fools entering the system.
A Ponzi scheme is “bad” for the people that manage to get part of their money back from the managers of the Ponzi scheme.
A Ponzi scheme is “a total disaster” for the last fools joining the system which manage to get nothing/very little out of it.
So, which Ponzi scheme participants in particular, was Patrick Moynihan talking about?
Alexander Search
Jan 9 2024 at 1:14pm
The propensity to make different kinds of decisions is itself based on circumstances, no?
Jakob Ingebrigtsen, for example, is a phenomenal middle-distance runner. He’s been successful in part because he’s made good decisions. But good decision-making doesn’t arise out of a vacuum. It’s reasonable to assume his training and racing approaches have been influenced by his father and two older brothers (and other coaches and sponsors and fans and Norwegian culture and …)
Maybe my example isn’t the best. I guess I could’ve dug up something about school quality or IQ or single-parent families or lead poisoning or something else like that. But, anyway, I guess I’m a little less comfortable than others about trying to draw a line between “circumstances” and “decision-making”.
Scott Sumner
Jan 9 2024 at 2:28pm
“The propensity to make different kinds of decisions is itself based on circumstances, no?”
That’s what I said.
Alexander Search
Jan 9 2024 at 3:10pm
Oh, yes, you’re right. Your postscript gives an example of how external conditions affect decision-making abilities. And I agree with that point of view.
But I get the sense that many people fall into thinking about poverty or life misfortune in a this-or-that kind of way. The culprit of poverty is either the outside world or the person; either small farms in Africa or a person’s own poor financial management. Rarely, in general, do I see people putting the person making the decisions back into the context of the world.
That is, I guess I would disagree, at least somewhat, with the assertion: “But I also suspect that as countries become richer, [1] a greater share of poverty is due to poor decision-making and [2] a smaller share is due to circumstances.” I’m a little uncomfortable with this thesis because, to my mind, at some level or other, decision-making can’t be separated from circumstances. If, however, the sentence had been tweaked to say “institutional/sociological circumstances” or “geographic circumstances” or “broader, coarser-grained circumstances that no individual could likely influence or alter in any way” or something like that instead, I probably would agree just about entirely.
But again, mainly I meant, by comment above, that “I’m a little less comfortable than _others_” as in others generically, like the shadowy “they” or “the man” that people like to bat about in conversation.
Jose Pablo
Jan 9 2024 at 3:35pm
“The propensity to make different kinds of decisions is itself based on circumstances, no?”
And yet, under the same circumstances some decision makers are wildly better than others.
One of Caplan’s more interesting insights is that before having the discussion on “who’s to blame” you need to develop a “moral theory of blame”, otherwise the discussion would always end up in a pointless conversation about free will.
And assigning blame, hard as it is, is useful when it comes to solving social problems (maybe the most useful tool).
The sketch of this “moral theory of blame” that Caplan proposes sounds pretty reasonable:
If the individual can take reasonable steps to avoid poverty, then the individual (and not the circumstances) is to blame
That the individual itself is the product of his circumstances is irrelevant as far as the steps the individual has to take are “reasonable” (which is a difficult but not an impossible positive discussion).
Except, obviously, if you consider that the steps that an individual can take are fully determined by his circumstances. But then, even Stalin would not be to blame for the killing of millions of people, since these killings would just have been the only possible consequence of the existence of the “blended of circumstances” that we call “Stalin”.
Alexander Search
Jan 9 2024 at 7:00pm
This is a topic in ethics, sure. But it’s also a topic involving utility maximization.
“If the individual can take reasonable steps to avoid poverty, then the individual (and not the circumstances) is to blame.”
Even if a person fails to take reasonable steps to avoid poverty and is therefore to blame and has satisfied some sensible-enough definition of moral failure, by this person’s failing to avoid poverty, the world’s level of utility and well-being has now declined. So it’s in everybody’s interest (of course to varying degrees) to have prevented this. (Or, at least, if by some handwavy calculations, humanity or society or whatever aggregate in aggregate can determine that its necessary extent of effort is less impactful than one additional bankruptcy.) Nobody wants the Pareto frontier to collapse at even a single point. People would prefer, if at all possible and practical, to prevent the kinds of outcomes described by the NBER study above.
Now, is it possible to prevent any random somebody’s financial collapse? No, not generally. But I suspect that the “cost” of society’s trying to understand why any particular person is reckless with money or has a propensity to make bad decisions is just about negligible. Not nothing, but more-or-less negligible if the responsibility for understanding and modeling human behavior is spread out across multitudes. Actual preventative actions, in accordance with the information gathered, would obviously be more costly; how much more so, I don’t know; mitigation costs might be less than the costs of specified kinds of misjudgment or they might not be. However, the kind of ethico-epistemo-crowd-watching we’re doing here under Sumner’s post — a lot of people are inclined to do something like that naturally anyway, so I don’t think the (opportunity) costs are all that considerable.
Is there even any point to hazarding the rabbit hole of a higher-order blame game? Looking for reasons for reasons for reasons …? Blaming A for B, which had been blamed for C, which had been, in turn, blamed for …? Eventually, since human beings are finite beings, of course not. Eventually, asking ‘why?’ has to become “a pointless conversation about free will”. But it’s my opinion that, generally, we (Perhaps we can exclude economists and statisticians like those of the NBER as well as philosophers. Can we exclude most policy makers too?), the average ‘we’, the “rubber meets the road” ‘we’, stop short of where we should. We go right to the threshold of “individual” and anything beyond that line collapses into, for some, apathy, into, for others, moral desert, and, into, for yet others, impracticality. All three of these collapsed states are right to some degree, but my own sensibilities suggest they’re usually inadequately descriptive if our goal is to understand the world as well as we can, to promote cohesive relationships in society as well as we can, and to improve our economic situation to the utmost practical extent.
And I think that — I think our culture, and all of us comprising it, should hone the habit of scrutinizing the complexities and deceptive obviousness of human behavior — because your point “under the same circumstances some decision makers are wildly better than others” is too important and too puzzling not to. Why exactly are some decision makers better than others? Why, under seemingly identical circumstances, do people make different decisions? Of course, the simple answer is that situations aren’t actually identical. But, to some extent, that’s beside the point. The point is that this question is a utility-maximization question. It’s an economics question. It’s asking the people affected by a situation (which are all of us to one degree or another, not just economists): What exactly can be done to improve the outcome, in net, of any particular situation associated with bad decision making? There’s no way of putting a plan to do this into place without answering that question. And there’s no way of answering that question without identifying (or trying, anyway, as systematically as possible, to identify) the reasons underneath what we generally consider a species of moral failure — that is, a propensity to make bad decisions. Of course, we may learn, after we discover the likely causes of a person’s behavior, that no practical action is possible. But we can’t know that without understanding the person first and developing some kind of intellectual sympathy for the person first. We can’t, for example, reduce the current number of bankruptcy filings by former NFL players by ascribing to them poor judgment and stopping there with that pronouncement. We have to step past the blame boundary and treat their situation more like an MBA exercise.
Floccina
Jan 9 2024 at 3:40pm
In addition to your PS, it is not possible to conclude for sure that those who save for later enojoy their entire lives more than those who live big while they can and scrape by.
Monte
Jan 9 2024 at 8:06pm
A 2009 Sports Illustrated article reported that 78% of NFL players and 60% of NBA players face serious financial hardships after retirement. The whole thing can pretty much be summed up with this one observation:
There are always exceptions, of course. For instance, Marshawn Lynch and Rob Gronkowski have tackled their finances exceptionally well in retirement largely by having tucked away every cent of their on-field salaries from the beginning of their careers. The biggest favor professional athletes (or anybody) can do for themselves and their families is to foolproof their finances for retirement.
Professional athletes aside, a new study investigating the root cause(s) of economic inequality points to “scarcity as a more likely driver of individual behavior and decision-making” rather than bad choices.
mira
Jan 10 2024 at 11:25am
Do you believe this for hereditarian reasons?
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